Why go tru all this? Simply get the factory official dyno sheet,then we all know the factory rated power, do you honestly think anybody is going to believe your homemade dyno sclabang versus the factory ratings,also,why are you questioning these nmbrs to start with? You,yourself have stated several times ,on this forum, a few years back, these cars perform at the same level,if equiped with similar exhaust. Also, owners of both Dd and fi cars, know this.I am trying very hard to understand your vandetta in this.
We have all read this,lets move on,promote our cars,one big happy family,LOL Image Unavailable, Please Login
Really?pr departement said what they had to say, in the most Lawyer infested ,law suit happy country in the world, also their biggest market. No factory documentation for back up, no dyno sheets? Makes absolutely no sense, one unhappy customer, and the whole thing would unravel.
Also your compression ratio advantage comments are silly. 455 hp in general with a 0,2 drop is almost undetectable. The 420 fi to 455 dd is obtained in mostly free breathing headers and lack of cats. Also this power difference is reflected in old time period correct magazine 0-60 times. Where the fi cars where run with 150 lbs of bumpers and restricted exhaust. While the Euro carb cars where tested as factory delivered with headers and no catalytic converters. Again all nmbrs ads up to this very nicel Look at the graf ,and you will see the 455 hp motor with 9,5. Needs a full 0,8 in drop and still maintain 446 hp.
Isn't a dyno more accurate than all of this crazy conjecturing? Anyone whos worked on these cars in earnest will tell you the truth and I dont know why its so hard to just accept it for some. The DD is a pinnacle automobile. The FI is a cool Lamborghini.
Why do you think 2 identical cylinder blocks,identical cyl heads,casted in the same mold,assembeled by the same engine builder, should be 80 hp apart? think about this,everybody used fi at this point, why would it be worse than carbs? I understand the emmision rules beeing pushed on the manufacturers,but really?i think Lamborghini did a great job,taking the mighty qv engine,develope a cam/injection combo,and make 420 hp with log exhast and catalytic converters, Or lets turn this around,Take your DD(that is if you have one) take off the headers,innstall log style manifolds and add catalytic converters,then put it on a Dyno. Do you honestly think it would make more than 420 hp?
Also,why do you not trust Lamborghinis own dyno sheets. Or hp ratings? You are really telling me these engines freshly buildt and assembeled brand new all perfect headers and all,same displacement bore ,stroke, valve size, machine shop, yet they are 80 hp apart?one would need a turbo or a supercharger to se these number differences,you have a facination for carburators,i respect that, we have 3 Fuel injected cars in our friend group down here,and a carbed anni coming, (i also have a dyno,be careful what you wish for) they all run absolutely amazing,fast quick, rockets,check out our fellow chatters red Anni video,its amazing,yet you are telling all of us our cars are not fast, and underperforming? Where on earth is this coming from?
Correct, that's only an 18% difference between 2 different engines with different crank, pistons, cams and induction systems.
What part of the previously stated declaration that the Fuelie was tested without cats and using sports headers did you miss?
Again, that was a compilation dyno illustration, the factory did the same thing, here is their original sheet for the Downdraft in low-resolution (the high resolution sheet will be in the article & book) Image Unavailable, Please Login
From the above, they illustrated this for official factory literature, a smoothed-out graph similar to the one we have compiled Image Unavailable, Please Login
I do have access to some factory official documents of course, interestingly there is no factory dyno sheet for the Fuelie that has been able to be provided to me, part of the very reason for our quest, but if one is discovered I think it will be consistent with our independent findings, based on my discussions with both the factory Chief Engineer of the period and 2 of the actual engine builders. Interestingly the FIA independently verified the 455 bhp of the Downdraft, I have those documents as well.
Nobody is saying that at all. You really should see received knowledge & accurate information as a positive and not a negative. A couple points to put this in perspective: Saying the Downdraft has @ 80 bhp more than the Fuelie is nothing new or surprising, as Mike Call who has a lot of Countach-specific experience pointed out years go, our tests have only proven this to be correct. Also, saying that the Downdraft makes @ 80 bhp than the Fuelie is not saying it's better than the Fuelie, it's just a technical statement which speaks for itself, nothing more or less, it's like saying the Lowbody really is lower than later Countachs, or that the LP400 really has the purest body shape, these are simply statements of fact which don't take away from any other variant. As I have said, we probably wouldn't have bothered with a detailed collation of tests if it were not for Allan Feidler's constant trolling, and the fact that we very recently uncovered that he himself had made past statements which exactly support our independent findings only served to be the icing on the cake and made presentation here appropriate. So Fuelie owners can definitely thank him for encouraging us to compile definitive testing to find out one way or another. At least we took an negative thing (trolling) and came up with a positive thing (accurate information). Added to this, some of us are constantly researching and always collecting data, that's what we have done for 30 years, still do and will always do. I'd personally welcome more dyno testing of the same variants compiled in our test and others besides, but to be meaningful the must conform to the following parameters: - cars must have factory standard unmodified engines - testing must be on-the-bench & out-of-the-car - engines must have sports headers - sports headers must emit via a sports exhaust Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
You mean all the engines where pulled out of the cars for this test? Wow.. I hope there are a lot of pictures of the entire process and maybe some info about the owners and maybe their experience and thoughts on the cars also.
The fuelie crank , has improved oil passages,poss carried over to the later dd,similar stroke=no performance gain Pistons are o,2 difference in compression,wich is insignificant,no hp gain,could poss be a dissadvantage,beeing the pistons are heavyer.= no performance gain Cams are ground to match the nature of carburators,no better ,no worse,just different,iow the nature of carbs ability to feed the engine,the cams will have to match this The fi delivers the fuel true nossels for each cyl,iow cams are ground accordingly= beeing The Bosch fi system was at this point used by pretty much all manufacturers,and counting inn Bosch knowledge and reputation,= poss a slight upper to the fi system and cam combo.
Lamborghini did this,with new engines,fresh out of the foudry,assembled ,iow brand new, back when these cars where sold and delivered to New car customer,iow the knowledge is established,no need for you to reinnvent the wheel,whatever your findings might be,annybody out there will throw the original factory dyno sheets in your face. At this point,take Alans bet,and run your car against his. That is the Real World Dyno, The Road, the factory did the r&d, Pre car installation dyno run, thats what they do, Consumers ,as in you,me,we drive our cars and experience their real world performance.
Some of the limiting factors really are the induction system. On my 930 the injectors were changed out to euro versions, the intake was extruded honed, cams changed to sc cams.
what you are saying is the factory 420 versus 455,is inncorrect? While all tests back when these cars where new indicates these numbers to be very close to the truth,based on the 0,2-0,4 0-60 times consistent magazine tests,road and track,auto motor und sport and their likes,also factory Littrature. No ide where your 80 hp difference comes from,also the owners of the cars wich you used the engines for your dyno run,are they agreeing with your numbers?,they must be really unhappy with their cars. i know for a 100% fact my car runs really well,actually it is a rocket, with stock exhaust and all(empty cats) the same goes for my friends cars, honestly,i think you are confusing the romantic carburator v12 4 valve ,one and only combo(wich i admitt is a valid point) with these cars performance ,and actual production and real world use. There is absolutely no doubt what so ever a sport tube ,bumper less Fuelie will run with a DD, and Alan is Willing to prove this. Actually,in some cases,the fuelie might run better,beeing the nature of fi versus carbs. Lets focus on the reason why we like the different variants,i really get that part, no problem. We have a carbed Anni in the works,might take some time,needs some tlc, (not mine at this point) poss more so than less,will see .but exiting.
always improvements to be made,carbs or injection,but all Factory ratings where dynoed in stock form,carb and fi, if the fi system can be simply modified,then the fuelie really would Rock.
Yes, all the tests that resulted in the conclusion illustration were done on-the-bench & out-of-the-car as pointed out several times now. Several of the tests were already done before we started our compilation, for final tuning or post-rebuild reasons. Yes, there are always images nowadays, for example, as posted on this page. All the chassis numbers and owners of the cars are documented & known. Naturally some people are not interested in coming on a forum and others feel their individual data sheets are proprietary, none of which changes the conclusive outcome. I'm confident we have accumulated more relevant independent data on this topic than any other entity, and I welcome more.
Here is a healthy DD wheel Dyno, 318 hp Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Sorry but that's an unhealthy Downdraft on wheel dyno just prior to the engine being pulled for a total documented rebuild by a well-known shop in the USA. The reality is best explained by the late great Allan Fiedler Image Unavailable, Please Login
