Coolant in oil sump. ?? | FerrariChat
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Coolant in oil sump. ??

Discussion in '360/430' started by Snapshift, Feb 15, 2022.

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  1. Snapshift

    Snapshift Formula Junior
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    #1 Snapshift, Feb 15, 2022
    Joy of joys. Checked coolant today after a few weeks of inactivity. Tank empty. Filled tank and was suspicious that that there was no leak visible anywhere. Started car and pulled oil dipstick, foamy brown colored sludge with water coolant mixed in. Had driven it yesterday and no visible problems white smoke etc. All gauges normal. Where to look, Head gaskets or water-oil pump? The headache/ fun ratio is getting too high for this car. Bummer. Thanks for any leads advice etc.
     
  2. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #2 Mario Andretti, Feb 15, 2022
    Isn't the oil cooler known to fail on the 360s (also known as heat exchanger) ? What car is it..
     
  3. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #3 flash32, Feb 15, 2022
    That's the oil cooler for gear box

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
     
  4. Snapshift

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    #4 Snapshift, Feb 15, 2022

    Sorry in my anxiety state, I forgot , it is a 2005 F430 Coupe, 24000mi , build no 60786 No white smoke from exhaust, Gear transaxle oil changed last September was clear. Annual was June 2021 no problems. This is the first real issue that I have had with the car. I don't think it is the transaxle heat exchanger. The coolant is getting into the crankcase oil somehow.
    New plugs and coils last May 2021. No issues then. Need to do some diagnostic work. Where to begin?
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 tazandjan, Feb 15, 2022
    Compression check to see if you have a bad head gasket.
     
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  6. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #6 Mario Andretti, Feb 15, 2022
    Hold on a second, these cars have common oil and water pumps... if the water pump seal is going, it will leak coolant into the oil pump, no (from looking at the design)
     
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  7. Mario Andretti

    Mario Andretti Formula 3
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    #7 Mario Andretti, Feb 15, 2022
    Check the 8:32 mark in the video, if that seal goes, you have water in the oil for sure.

     
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  8. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #8 24000rpm, Feb 15, 2022
    I've mentioned this before on 430s
    THERE IS A COOLANT/ENGINE OIL HEAT EXCHANGER IN THE V OF THE 430 ENGINE.
    just like the coolant/gearbox oil heat exchanger in the V of the 360 engine!
     
  9. Snapshift

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    #9 Snapshift, Feb 16, 2022
    How can you tell if this is the defective part? IT appears that is not available
     
  10. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #10 24000rpm, Feb 16, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2022
    when you say defective, do you mean a failed part?
    Do you mean how do I know if that ENGINE OIL/COOLANT HEAT exchange failed?
    I dont know. It is a possibility

     
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  11. Snapshift

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    #11 Snapshift, Feb 16, 2022
    Looks to be one of 3 failed parts or even more serious internal damage.1, OIL/water pump, 2, Head gasket, or3, heat exchanger. Compression test, borescope inspection and leakdown testing may rule in or out head gasket. Since the exhaust is clear and it ran like a champ, That may mean head gasket is ok. There appears to be no oil in coolant tank. so somehow coolant is getting into oil from high pressure to low side of oil pressure. This might be the case for heat exchanger, but supposedly this is a pretty rugged piece. I guess the oil/water pump could cause a mix of the two. Ill have to pull bottom plates to inspect for weeping holes. I fear a nightmare coming on.
     
  12. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #12 mike32, Feb 16, 2022
    Drop the sump oil and put a sample in a deep glass bottle to allow it to separate. With the sump plugs out, fill the header tank and see if it comes out the sump drains.
    As far as i recall the plate cooler is for the gearbox but the drawing shows it in the main lubrication system, not sure on that one.
    Head gasket or liner o ring failure ?
     
  13. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #13 mike32, Feb 16, 2022
    Would you not see the water coming out the tell tail, rather than go into the oil side
     
  14. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #14 24000rpm, Feb 16, 2022
    there are 2 heat exchnagers for the 430, one for the gearbox oil/coolant, one for the engine oil/coolant.
    the former is on top of the latter. And the former is much smaller than the latter.
    These 2 exchangers are ON DIFFERNET PART DIAGRAMS if that's what have caused the confusion.

     
  15. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #15 24000rpm, Feb 16, 2022
  16. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #16 24000rpm, Feb 16, 2022
  17. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    #17 mwstewart, Feb 16, 2022
    I wouldn't panic for now, it's likely the oil & water pump seals. There isn't a history of head gasket or heat exchange failiure on the F430 - not to rule them out of course - but they are a less likely root cause than the pump.
     
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  18. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #18 mike32, Feb 16, 2022
    That explains why i could not make out the diagram, the water must go from one to the other. Looks like a plate heat exchanger rather than tube type
     
  19. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #19 mike32, Feb 16, 2022
  20. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #20 flash32, Feb 16, 2022
    I don't believe any çoolant is in there ..just oil
    The smaller one which lays in top for the gearbox had both coolant and gear oil



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  21. mwstewart

    mwstewart F1 Rookie

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    #21 mwstewart, Feb 16, 2022
    The bar and plate heat exchanger (the large one in the vee) is immersed in engine coolant. It's a robust thing.
     
  22. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #22 24000rpm, Feb 16, 2022
    Image Unavailable, Please Login


    the coolant is at the bottom, here's an upside down pic

     
  23. flash32

    flash32 F1 Veteran

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    #23 flash32, Feb 16, 2022
    Thank you for showing me .. appreciate it

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  24. mike32

    mike32 F1 Veteran

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    #24 mike32, Feb 16, 2022
    At £1200 it should be, mind you the oil one is less than £200
     
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  25. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

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    #25 24000rpm, Feb 18, 2022
    since now you know its the engine oil/coolant heat exchanger fault,
    is it possible, when you had it replaced, to dissect the bad one and show us some pics?
    up to some dremel work? I want to know where is the leak, maybe a hole or something
     
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