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"Cool the Engines"-- Banning Certain Qualifying Modes (Mercedes)

Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. kylec

    kylec F1 Rookie
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    Yep. I’d like to see them limit all the components to one race weekend. Blow it up crossing the finish line if you want.
     
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  3. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    On a serious note, Mitch, I already know my answer is so (about detonation and engine not running hot) as I've been "tinkering" with passenger cars and race cars since a sprout. (Thanks for the influence, dad. Wouldn't trade it for anything. :))

    More so, an example....I changed my plugs, points and cap on my car (a '74 Gremlin) before driving from FL to NY many, many moons ago. I forgot I had been using High Test gasoline (as I raced it) and didn't reset the timing. Filled up with regular and after the first rest area stop, while accelerating, away, I heard the dreaded knock. I pressed on, even refilling with regular knowing once rolling, the too far advanced wouldn't REALLY hurt anything. Not once did the temp gauge budge from it's usual 185. Thankfully, the pistons and valves were stock and it survived. Of course I reset the timing once I got to my father's 'light and tools (I knew the IL6 was dead reliable so 'brought none).

    Regarding changing the rules due to Mercs dominance (or anybody's), 'not good.
     
  4. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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    next weekend you mean, this weekend nothing changes
     
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  5. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
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    And to think we came from the days of 'qualifying engines' to this crap by the FIA.
     
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  6. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    And wassamattuhwiu? We gots to make things fair doncha know....? ;)

    When the masses have the attention span of an apple, you gotta feed 'em some "excitement" to keep 'em coming back.
    Like those "humongous" IndyCar crowds.... :rolleyes:
     
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  8. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
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    William I am not interested in a parity system, and I didn’t say that so don’t put words in my mouth. If your idea of excitement in racing is watching what is almost a foregone conclusion, then whatever.

    I want to see top level engineering and driving from multiple teams without having to hope for rain etc to see a race that Mercedes doesn’t win by lapping up to fourth place.

    I see the restrictions in testing, development etc which were meant to reduce costs have really only driven them up. I wonder if there is a different approach that can be taken, ie a naturally aspirated high performance engine option versus specialty power units with an aim on approaching horsepower targets for the power unit type, with engineering advancements giving an advantage. Maybe then chassis or aerodynamic rules are relaxed or changed to encourage innovation or something. Maybe more testing is allowed during the season for lower ranked teams to identify and implement performance improvements.

    I am more inclined to identify why teams are in F1 and why the fans want to watch it. Then come up with options/alternatives to try and achieve better and more exciting racing while reducing costs for the teams so the sport survives and advancements in technology flow into more mainstream uses.
     
  9. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #32 lorenzobandini, Aug 15, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    'Not trying to stir the pot or be argumentative. Just tryng to clarify.
    Within your same post, you do say that without realizing it, as I believe all those that make similar statements do. Note the emboldened:

    (expand the above quote}

    A) Translation: You want parity.....a "better" show. Without having to wait for that wonderful, rare, occasion to arise naturally where the stars and planets align and 2 or more teams hit on the same sweet spot on a given/given day/days.

    B) Translation: Parity in power. (Equal power for all so no one has an advantage, again for the "show".)

    C) Translation: I really don't know. (How can you have "engineering advancements giving an advatage" without an edge on power, which you want regulated out? What would be the incentive to spend that money and time?)

    D) Why? Someone would gain an edge and there would go that equalization again......

    E) More testing allowed for some and not others? That sounds like trying to achieve "parity" for the "show", once again......by NOT being fair to all. Where's the "equal opportunity" in that?

    F) We already know. Read your own wishes. Fans these days (and the sponsors dumping the big bucks into the "show") want the excitement of "orchestrated" (regulated "parity") close racing (the "show") rather than patiently waiting for the aforementioned ( A) ) occasion.

    As william suggested, may I do the same specifically: try following that paritized open wheel series IndyCar. Everyone uses the exact same Dallara DW12 chassis, identical spec(ified) parts, and a choice of two sealed (you only lease them, you don't own them,and can't tamper with them) engines ("Chevrolet" or "Honda").
    They are qualifying this weekend as a matter of fact, for next weekends Indy 500.
    And boy-oh-boy, doncha know?! They've even allowed an extra 15% of turbo boost (1.3 bar to 1.5 bar) for all the competitors to improve the speed to add to the "orchestrated" excitement of the qually "show". :rolleyes: (the boost returns to normal for the race and rest of season).

    Leave F1 as it is for those of us that do enjoy the excellence.....dominated or otherwise.

    The cream always rises to the top, as you can witness in the totally paritized IndyCar, so why dumb F1 down to the lowest common denominator too? That would just be the removal of excellence and achievement as IndyCar did to CART (Championship Auto Racing Teams, the Indy car series that like F1, didn't demand "parity"). :)
     
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  10. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    Is Mercedes doing the same trickery that Ferrari did last year (something Mercedes got banned)? Is this the FIA politely saying ''no mass'' by disallowing it? note that this year Mercedes has smokey engines...something Ferrari had last year. Coincidence?
     
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  11. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #34 lorenzobandini, Aug 15, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
    Sure is a coinkadink, ain't it? Hadn't t'ought o' that..... :rolleyes:

    (btw, it's no más....Mercs not had time to go to church....:))
     
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  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,180
    You are finally figuring this out !?!

    Have one person set up all 20 cars making them equally fast around the track.
    That way it is a drivers race--but then again it is no longer F1, but F3.
     
  14. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    Aawww, c'mon Mitch...."we're" quite alert. We need more lerts..... :)
     
  15. JL350

    JL350 Karting

    Jan 20, 2013
    108
    I was not trying to argue for parity, just floating ideas on how to mix it up and and make it more interesting, maybe even levelling the field through allowing some technical freedom. Ie clever engineering building a better car than someone’s big fat check book.

    Not every manufacturer wants super complicated power units, maybe their focus is different? There are different advantages and disadvantages to different engine types, naturally aspirated with and without kers, V12/v10, etc., different power units could have different weight limits, drag and downforce limits... The different options obviously have to be competitive to the other options, a bit like the olden days, maybe it just isn’t possible anymore.

    The F1 regulators and teams ultimately will decide but if the racing doesn’t interest enough people, the the money moves away, then it will end up being a parity series anyway.
     
  16. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #38 lorenzobandini, Aug 16, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2020
    A1 & A2) There you go again. Stating it and not realising it. :p
    Creating "parity" and "leveling the field" are synonymous. ;)

    B) Your "clever engineering" is presently purchased (hiring the best engineers) by your "big fat check book". ;)

    C) We can't always get what we want. Rules are rules. If someone doesn't wish to participate, don't. ;)

    D) No sheet!!! I've lived thru a bunch since '60ish (even Chapman's '56b turbine experiment in '71. It's a shame Wankels (rotaries) were never allowed. Mazda may have joined the fray with the noisy li'l b*st*rds.... :eek::)).

    E) Huh? How do engines have different "drag and downforce limits"...they're hiding in the bodywork?
    My knowledge of this subject is obviously non-existent....I must have missed "Aerodynamics and Engines 101" :( :rolleyes:
    :)

    F) No it wouldn't. It might, and that's a mighty BIG might, revert back to what we purists enjoyed, a set of rules and let 'em rip. To heck with the "show" for entertainment. On with a real display of excellence and superiority in the sport.....the pinnacle auto racing.....FORMULA ONE, and those very rare "occasions" of real racing; not week in, and week out.....expected....."choreographed/orchestrated", "exciting", "fictional" "showmanship" that I watch TV, and go to the theatre for.

    Try IndyCar for your closer competition pleasure. Indy 500 Fast Nine qualifying 1-3 pm (eastern US time, I don't know your location) today. NBC TV and/or T&S at https://racecontrol.indycar.com/ and the 500 next Sunday. Always fun. :) (Just not technically stimulating....33 identical, and, identically equipped, chassis. :rolleyes:)


    'The above are my true feelings, seriously and with good intentions, posted. Enjoy your preferences.....as do we all. :) (I digress)
     
  17. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,180

    I used to tinker a lot, too, back in the 1970s.......

    By the time detonation is taking place the engine is already making less power than if the timing was perfect.
    By the time detonation is taking place the ECU should have already taken boost out of the intake so it is not happening.
    So, even in quali modes, the engine should not be detonating--it may be running within a cat's whisker of detonation, but it should remain just inside this envelope.

    What the engine mode bans will achieve is that Mercedes will set the engine mode to 2 or 3 cat's whiskers away from detonation. At this point they will have 40 of the 50 HP advantage they currently have in qualifying. The other teams should lose something proportional.
     
  18. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    #40 lorenzobandini, Aug 18, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
    The context is getting lost in all the posts....
    I understand all the above. My reference to "detonation" was only in my response to
    This:
    I was intimating that a higher temperature burn (which is what melts pistons and burns valves) doesn't/shouldn't cause "your" "motor that's too hot ".

    At the time that I made that response, I was thinking of:
    "What are qualifying modes?
    Qualifying modes make available extra engine revs and the ability to run without harvesting power and diverting it to the battery, thereby allowing maximum deployment of energy recovered via the two energy recovery systems. These modes also typically run more aggressive ignition timing and fuel mixture.

    By contrast, a standard race mode will allow adequate harvesting to keep the battery supplied with energy that can be deployed through the lap – without draining the battery and thereby compromising the following lap. It will also typically run lower maximum revs than the qualifying mode and a setting of ignition timing that keeps the valves and piston crowns at a safer temperature."


    So I interpreted your mention of "back down a hair when the motor gets too hot." as the problem with the advanced timing and leaner fuel mixture (which in itself raises the burn temp; I presume you know all else remaining constant, a richer mixture burns cooler and "smoother") is not a "hotter engine", it's the increased temp. combustion which does the damage to the valves and pistons. That's why in my original response I stated, and I quote, "All the backing off in the world ain't gonna help when your nigh on detonation with the timing.". I'm aware that just about every car on the public roads these days has (old school terminology) "knock sensing" control of detonation.
    Again, even an old school ignition system with the engine knocking out the ying-yang won't cause an engine to run hot (as in the example of my 1400 mile trip with no engine temp fluctuation). The cooling system will keep the engine's temp. fine....just not the combustion chamber's temp.

    Anywho, simply some miscommunication is noted here. :)

    (BTW, the '70s were my racing "tinkering" days; I still work on my personal, and friends, autos. Just not as often and on as "major" a repair/maintence as in the past. Old age has a way of doing that.....;))

    :)
     
  19. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    Engine manufacturers must provide information on their ERS architecture by the end of this week. If there are any doubts, physical checks will be done.

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    also reports that the TD regarding the quali mode is expected to arrive this week. We will see if the quali mode ban will arrive already in Spa or the FIA will wait until next year.


    AMuS

    Red Bull and Mercedes are expected to bring upgrades to Spa. Mercedes says their upgrades are not just a smaller rear wing for Spa/Monza: "They're performance updates."


    Red Bull believes that with a possible quali mode ban in Spa, the engines will be much closer and their deficit to Mercedes will be smaller, though the Mercedes engine will still remain on top. Helmut Marko: "But not to the same extent as before."

    Helmut Marko: "Mercedes were not only superior in qualifying thanks to the engine, but also in the starting lap, the inlap into the pits, the outlap, when overtaking and when defending. Over the distance our deficit should be smaller."

    Toto Wolff: "We believe that the quali mode ban will even help us in the race. The matrix will change if the FIA actually changes the rules. We see this as an opportunity. Five qualifying laps with maximum power less lets us drive 25 laps with more power in the race."


    https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/red-bull-hofft-neue-motorregeln-upgrades-gp-belgien/
     
  20. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    When you back of a tad in a turbo motor you operate at less boost and are farther from detonation.
     
  21. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    PMing you....too far off topic. :)
     
  22. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Rookie
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    Once again the FIA shows how stupid they are. "Banning" things is how F1 got itself in such a horrible place. It is now down to a spec series...and still they want to ban more. The teams that really want to go racing should give the FIA the finger and go start their own wild and wooly and unlimited race series. I don't car what they call it, just build the fastest car you can and go racing. It doesn't even matter where the driver sits...or how many cylinders the engine has...or the displacement. Build the car with parts from Auto Zone...just build it and come ready to race. I'm sure the drivers who make tens of millions of dollars won't show up, at first. But there are a lot of drivers available who want to race...and I think there are millions of fans who would buy a ticket to come see it. And if some of the cars prove faster than the current F1 cars, that will be the nail in F1's coffin.
     
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  23. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Three Time F1 World Champ

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  24. jgonzalesm6

    jgonzalesm6 F1 World Champ
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    F1: new technical directive on engine settings will apply from Monza. Teams are allowed to change engine mappings from race to race. The overtaking button may be used in the race.

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    So you can use a different engine mode:

    • Laps behind the Safety Car or at VSC speed (virtual SafetyCar)
    • The lap after the chequered flag
    • Laps before and after a flying qualifying lap
    • Any other lap that is 20 % above the fastest lap of the qualifying session

    You can also use a special engine mode if its because of a reliability issues but the FIA has to be informed about it beforehand and there has to be a significant loss of power (you are not allowed to switch back to a higher engine mode again)

    When a team notices issues with the engine during the race (risk of a possible engine failure), you are allowed to run a lower engine mode but you will be stuck with that mode for the rest of the race.


    https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-quali-modus-verbot-ab-monza-ueberholknopf-erlaubt-alle-details-technische-direktive/
     
  25. lorenzobandini

    lorenzobandini F1 Rookie
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    BTW, what are the regs. on the drivers' diaper absobancy? :confused:

    And, need it be removed before the weigh_in?.....liquid could be added to make weight...... :rolleyes:

    When does it stop? May as well just do it......merge with IndyCar, that is.......:(
     
  26. Barbedwyre

    Barbedwyre Karting

    Jan 21, 2018
    115
    Didn’t read the entire thread but they should ban different engine modes altogether and lock the ecu for the race. Whatever you qualify in is what you race in. If your engine blows up or longevity is affected then so be it.

    Well post #46 says what I said. I think they got it right.
     
  27. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
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    I sense further delay for this issue. Easily for teams to delay and question. They should do this next year. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151565/f1-qualifying-engine-mode-ban-postponed-to-monza

    --The FIA clampdown on Formula 1 teams usage of qualifying engine modes has been postponed until the Italian Grand Prix, instead of next weekend's Belgian GP as originally intended.

    The concession has been made to allow engine manufacturers more time to conduct dyno testing before they head into a race weekend committed to the new restrictions.--
     
  28. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    6,334
    They still allow the "overtake" button. What prevents someone to "keep the button pushed" for all the race?
     

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