Comparing the 812 Competizione vs 12cilindri

I think the 812 Competizione design is great. For some reason I think it is more controversial on fchat than I think it deserves to be. It is the most popular car in our garage with friends who ask to see. It is not the most expensive car but it is the one most people love the design of. I also love driving it. In theory it is just a heated up 812 but somehow it feels so different to the 812. It is sharper, has more aggressive sound inside, the rear window - or lack of - gives a more focused interior ambience, the alcantara wheel and Kevlar/alcantara interior on our car makes you feel like you are driving something a whole lot more purposeful, which matches the way the car moves down the road. It is a very special thing.

I think the 12C will feel more like a newer version of the 812 instead of a relative of the Competizione. It’s not just about the engine, which can easily (and probably will be) tuned differently - in the same way as the F8 does not feel like the Pista - but it’s about what they want the car to be. It’s not meant to be a hardcore, more aggressive product. Even compared to the 812 SF they wanted the 12C to cover the GT role at least as well as it does the super sports car role. Despite the fact it will not be a Competizione rival, I think the 12C will still be a really good car. However, the price on all these cars just seems to be getting very expensive. A TM spider will be getting on for £500k! More if you go really mad. Our TM 812 SF was £370k in 2020. That’s quite a jump.

Still, a 12C spider could be one of the cars that gets most use in our garage, once it arrives.

 

And do we have a parallel in the f8 being a tribute to the v8 and the last of its kind (at least for now) and the new 12 cylinder being named that literally and pulling its engine from its limited edition cousin…the last production v12. I know this isn’t the last time we thought, well., this is the last. But if does prove to be the writing was clearly on the wall.

 

Your estimate of 812 production is way off according to some well respected posters!

 

Go back through and look it up. I believe its at least or over twice that with all the variants. A pretty high volume car.

 

I like your logic, but I think its a little bit incomplete.

The F8 seems to have been a bridge the gap model to the 296. The 296 was supposedly just not ready.

The Dodici does not seem like its a bridge the gap to a hybrid model for this part of the line up.

If this is correct, then you can’t apply the logic of no special version F8, thus no special version Dodici.

I think you could argue that they’ve taken the front engine V12 car in a little bit more GT direction and say a hard core model might not be as appropriate, but then you have the other side of the argument: that now theres more room for the harder core special version.

With all that said, and considering Ferrari needs to make money, it would be almost foolish for them to not make a special version of the Dodici.

 

I think Ferrari got it right with the 12C in terms of product positioning, and I think they left more to be done later, one step at a time.
See, the Dodici has practically the same capacity as a Comp, but in a more "GT" package, in a new project, and that was enough for the model now.
This creates the possibility of improvement for a VS and even a Modificata, even though the F140 is at the peak of its development.
There are a number of things left, such as multimatic suspension, aero, weight, slight RPM increase, new technologies to be worked on in later models.

 

Very reasonable logic on all accounts. Manzoni could very easily cut some weight, add carbon wheels and the obligatory flaps and gills plus a homage paint job. Give it a plaque and add an Aperta version as well. Include at least one new innovation.

 

What if they make the “VS” very extreme? It may not be only about more engine power- and Im sure they could get a bit more.

Multimatic active suspension requires a more powerful electrical system, both of which add weight. At that point you might as well add a little hybrid stuff to give you the e power boost. …

 

It was the subject of a discussion, to make a GT3 RS version rather than a GT3 version. They have not followed up for the moment. On the other hand expect nice perforated wheels on the rear with visible tires...

 

Thank you for the info.
What does "perforated wheels" mean?
Like on the Lamborghini Temerario, with the rear tires exposed?

 

Sort of !

 

I think that is what it comes down to. Just depends on if the 12C is a new chassis and was designed to be compatible with multiple powertrain configurations. Adding a small hybrid would augment the low end after tuning the ICE to the high. Leave all the deep hybrid/turbo stuff to the SF90 and such but make a VS be a VS. Will not happen but should.

 

Not sure that the current V12 has any headroom for improvement.

 

So you confirm a 12 Cilindri VS ? , with visible rear wheels like on the F12 TRS and the Bugatti tourbillon ? Love that feature


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Any chance of VS returning to round taillights?

The F12 TRS with the rear tires visible and the round lights, what a look.

 

Didn’t someone (I think Leiters) say that the hybrid system on the V12 doesn’t easily work? Not sure why he thought that and Lamborghini did the Revuelto. Although it has to be said that the Revuelto cannot keep pace with the five-years-older SF90. Perhaps there is a law of diminishing returns with that being the reason we are seeing V8 and now mainly V6 hybrids across various brands. For example, the in-line electric motor may work less efficiently with a longer crank (complete guess but I could imagine it might be difficult - the ICE has no difficulty with a longer crank because the cylinders are along its length, whereas the electric motor pushes from one end).

 

I think there may be something to that, but I also wonder if Ferrari wants to keep the balance between ICE/E power skewed very heavily to ICE.

It’s clear they can make hybrid work with the V12 because they did so with the LaF. But, the current V12 dates back to the Enzo and is a fairly large unit.

I think most of us have had the same thoughts: why not just develop a new V12 that is smaller, and relies more on e power. Assuming it would be considerably smaller than today’s engine, it would not make the same power, and thus they would have to rely more on e power. None of us knows the exact split, and I have no idea if they really thought about doing this, but for the sake of our discussion, let us make an assumption that Ferrari thought about the same thing: new V12+ hybrid.

Well, we are seeing the results in the Lamborghini vs the SF90. The Lamborghini V12 seems to be making similar power to the Ferrari V12, and even with the hybrid boost, the 5+ year old SF90 still gets ahead. Why is that? I suspect it’s the torque from the turbo V8. Low torque is not the V12’s strong suit. To my thought about the balance between ICE and e power- Lamborghini is using a similar balance to Ferrari. Why? Maybe it’s the limits of e motors and batteries today. Or maybe it’s to preserve the feel of ICE vs electric power, or maybe both? (And maybe something else?)

This backdrop might explain why Ferrari did not develop a smaller V12, it’s clear they would have needed to shift the balance of power generation even more to the electric side. I doubt any of us would have been happy with that, and then also, maybe they would have needed bigger e motors and maybe a larger battery.

With all that said, is it not possible they could add a very small battery pack and e motor into a future Dodici “Comp” model? Since we are just imagining things- what if they took the smaller battery from the F80 and paired it with a less powerful e motor. What if that could give the car a 50-75hp boost when desired- and these parts would be located toward the rear of the car, further helping the slight rearward weight balance that Ferrari has deemed desirable (typically something like 47:53).

I also find it interesting that the Lamborghini, using a part carbon tub construction, weighs 202 kg (445lbs) more than the SF90 using aluminum construction. Thats using both manufacturers dry weights….

 

I believe that, on the subject of straight-line acceleration of the SF90 vs. Revuelto, the answers to your questions are in your own post: the SF90 torque curve provides an advantage at low revs, but, mainly, the considerable 200 kg difference in the official kerb weight.

However, if Ferrari were to make a new V12, there are many more factors to consider.

An F140, in its current size, weighs ~280 kg. The new Revuelto V12 weighs 218 kg. Ferrari could easily make a new, smaller V12 weigh ~180 kg. That alone is 100 kg less than an F140, which makes a big difference in the final weight.

Another relevant factor is the compression ratio, which in the 12C F140 is higher than in the new Revuelto V12. In a new Ferrari V12, it could be even higher.

In addition, there is a factor that is rarely discussed, but which I consider very important: engine responsiveness. In other words, it is not just the engine reaching at 9K, 10K or 11K RPM, but the time it takes to reach those RPMs. This is one of the highlights of the GMA T33 engine, which takes just 0.3s from idle to max RPM. This feature makes the torque curve less noticeable and the performance much more linear, given the instantaneous increase in RPM.

This responsiveness in an all-new V12 would be a huge performance advantage over the F140 or F154.

There is a lot of potential in a new state-of-the-art V12 hybrid-compatible, if Ferrari applies its resources and know-how to development.