collapsed piston rings? anyone seen this in a Ferrari? | FerrariChat
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collapsed piston rings? anyone seen this in a Ferrari?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Ferraripilot, Feb 6, 2011.

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  1. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Owner Project Master

    May 10, 2006
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    John!
    #1 Ferraripilot, Feb 6, 2011
    Hi everyone, A local with a TR6 just built their motor last summer and said he overheated the engine and leakdown on a few cylinders was ridiculous at 16%+ (prior was 3%). Said he pulled the pistons and found the new rings had little to no tension on them and the ring gap was close to what it is when installed in the cylinder. I have never ever seen this happen and can't imagine the temps this motor must have been subjected to in order to essentially anneal the tension out of these rings. Another possibility I thought to be not enough cooling from a lack of oil or incorrect viscosity. Low quality rings could have been used and were the cause. Piston rings he used were whatever came with the pistons he ordered from Victoria British, whatever those were.

    Anyone ever see this? Can someone post what sort of rings they were so we can perhaps know as a community what to steer clear from? Or is this just what can happen regardless of ring manuf if the engine is overheated enough.
     
  2. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
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    T. Monma
    #2 335s, Feb 6, 2011
    yes, I´ve seen this many many times...
    ill suited/selected rings for application, combined with an engine likely overheated >WAY higher than owner willing to/knowingly admit to...

    I am machince shop specializing in blocks, heads too, but only for racing apps, I see this sort of thing more frequently than you mioght think
     
  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #3 Rifledriver, Feb 6, 2011
    We have seen many cases of Ferrari motors overheated to the extent that the spark plug connectors turned into a puddle in the bottom of the plug wells and the plastic piece melted OFF the coolant thermostat with no damage to either rings or headgaskets.

    And I mean many cases.

    Neither Ferrari nor us use parts from JC Whitney.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Tim Keseluk
    #4 2NA, Feb 6, 2011
    LMAO!!
     
  5. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #5 Ferraripilot, Feb 6, 2011
    Definitely a litmus test to stick with good quality parts and never overheat a motor. 355s and 360s see huge temps when ran hard so I guess I am surprised they are not seeing this sort of issue as commonplace. I have to assume this little TR6 motor saw temps well over 300 degrees or seriously improper oiling to make something like this happen.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #6 Rifledriver, Feb 6, 2011
    Not really. It is not that uncommon when low quality parts have been used. In the 70's what you described was quite common in many cars and still is when old tech, poor quality parts are used.
     
  7. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    #7 Pantdino, Feb 6, 2011
    I would guess low quality rings from China or something
    They should let Victoria British know so they stop ordering from that supplier
     
  8. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #8 2NA, Feb 6, 2011
    I've seen some pretty low-quality stuff come out of China. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of other places making replacement parts for some of these moderately-priced collector cars so this kind of thing is common.

    If the rings were made well no amount of overheating (short of melting the piston) would have annealed them that much.

    If the pistons weren't damaged perhaps a set of Deves rings might get him back on the road.
     
  9. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #9 Ferraripilot, Feb 6, 2011
    I wouldn't use Deves. Their oil rings are too harsh IMO. I stick with total seal and NPR with a hastings style 3 piece oil ring. All this due to poor quality pot metal rings. Who woulda thunk it. It's tragic to have a fresh rebuilt motor go south all due to a very inexpensive part. Good thing the gasket kits are cheap for those things.
     
  10. fvracing

    fvracing Karting

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    #10 fvracing, Feb 9, 2011
    Just Had this happen to my 77 308. the motor was rebuilt by FOW 10 years ago and the motor hasn't been driven enough to have broken a ring. I'm very shocked to see this happen to a motor which was rebuilt by such a world class service specialist.
     
  11. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
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    #11 Ferraripilot, Feb 10, 2011

    How did you diagnose the issue?
     
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #12 2NA, Feb 10, 2011
    Define "world class service specialist".

    Insufficient ring end gap can cause ring breakage rather quickly.

    Without taking it apart it's pretty hard to narrow down the problem.
     
  13. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    #13 Rifledriver, Feb 10, 2011
    Yup


    The cart is before the horse here.
     
  14. Spencer89

    Spencer89 Karting

    Apr 25, 2004
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    #14 Spencer89, Feb 10, 2011
    Hi all
    I had a customer tow in his daughters, 02 nissan with about 70k on it. His daughter said it quit running on the freeway, and temp gauge was up a little just before it quit. Engine cranked with no compression, decided to check PCM codes. Had temp sensor ckt fault, checked the freeze frame=cts at 285 degrees/mph 68/rpm/2800. She was still flying down the freeway while the engine was starting to melt down. Who knows how much hotter the motor got before it finally gave up. Needless to say, Dad was not to happy when I showed
    him the data. Regards, Rick
     
  15. cizeta

    cizeta Rookie

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    #15 cizeta, Mar 2, 2011
    Some 81-82 308's had oil consumption issues, I only did one motor for this problem and the maintenance history on the car was very questionable. If you stick with Ferrari parts you will unlikely ever have a problem.
    The only brand ring I will flat-out refuse to use is Deves, they fail. I've had problems with them in MG's, Volvo, Alfa, all set to factory gap specs. I've an Alfa 3.0 on the stand right now with a oil consumption issue caused by Deves rings. For general engine builds I use o.e. if available, or P.C./Mahle, C&A, Total Seal, etc. Engines with history of ring problems run the gamut across manufacturers, Ford 1.6 HSC, Nissan 1.6, Jaguar 4.0 V8, Mercedes-Benz 112 & 113. Most of these problems are self-inflicted by the manufacturers trying to use a low-tension ring in an application with a generic oil specification and extended recommended service intervals. Change your oil!
     
  16. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
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    #16 fastradio, Mar 2, 2011
    Sorry, I just can't with a straight face agree with this statement...otherwise, we pretty much do agree.

    Best,
    David
     

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