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Clutch Question

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by c4b4the04, Jun 9, 2020.

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  1. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    if the clips are loose the clutch nevertheless will work fine when right adjusted. and this I think you not did

    have a look at jamies diff thread, there I explained with own words how to do this adjustment and jamie did so and it works after he had the problem of missadjustment
     
  2. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    Cassidy
    Just got off the phone with him and he filmed the intermediate plate. His moves millimeters. Mine moves more like a quarter of an inch. His ‘studs’ look the same clutch in or clutch out. Mine changes drastically. I was close on the shims and was told to go with it, I’m not against doing that part again. I still think the intermediate plate is moving backwards too much. I will re-read the post. Have you ever seen a clip that wouldn’t stay on?


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  3. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    yes, several times. not all at the same time. but never had problems after adjusting right. but may be when not right adjusted then you may get problem because of the intermediate plate moving too much. I think this plate is new? if so then send back and get a right one.

    important are the spacers between the springs holding the intermediate plate. have to adjusted so that when you fix the springs with a lot of washers and 3 nuts that then the front clutch disc just turn freely without moving front and back. if you could move the clutch disc front and back then the intermediate plate is too far to the back and will block the rear clutch disc when you push the clutch pedal. as I said it is not about 1/100 mm, but 1/10 mm
     
  4. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Gotta say...

    all this nonsense over adjusting a dual plate clutch is a PIA. The thought that comes to mind is “what were they (Ferrari) thinking?”

    the single plate conversion kit seems to be a really good idea about now! Better action and presumably, a far more straightforward install.

    best wishes... sorry to not have anything helpful to add.
     
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  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    this adjustment is not nonsense, if it would be nonsense then you not have to adjust

    also we talk here about the problem with the dual clutch cassidy has and not about conversion to single clutch where such a problem never occure
     
  6. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    My spacers were .25mm too thin. I got shim steel and made the spacers.

    Today we drilled out the rivets on intermediate plate so we could swap to good clips. That part now holds properly but I still don’t have the same drag on the front disc like Jamie had. Mine is just too loose, the spacers made it worse. I quit for the night. Need to work in the morning then can play cars in the afternoon. I just want to drive my car! It’s been 6 months in pieces! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  7. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    what are those 2 clips from in photo 2? and why you have 4 right clips when you only need 3?

    now you are on the right way adjusting ;)
     
  8. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    My comment was not clear... the ‘nonsense’ I reference, is the Ferrari design of a clutch system that is needlessly complex.

    Making a tech like Cassidy do all the above shown work to simply replace a clutch makes no sense. His efforts are applauded given the overly complex design.

    Complexity for the sake of complexity makes no sense. Adding complexity without a performance improvement is bad engineering.

    The single plate clutch from the 512 is an improvement in performance and a reduction in complexity. It makes sense.
     
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  9. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    It's been such an expense of time and funds to get this far....I would ultimately like to have a single disc setup. I just wish I had bought an AP setup initially, and maybe I wouldn't be doing all of this silliness.
     
  10. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    when you know how to do it is no problem. F is a high tech car and not a VW or GM
     
  11. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
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    When you get it sorted it will be fine!
     
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  12. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    So I put the .25mm shims in that it called for, and now the clutch shifts.. but it slips like crazy. Clutch doesn't pick up until 75% up off the floor, almost all the way out.

    I'm going to try to fish the thinner shim stock spacers back out and see if that helps.

    There's no way to know right now if the .25mm shims helped it or if the work I did on the clips made the difference. If I pull the .25 and it works, I'll know it was just too much shim. If it doesn't, I've got to come up with a better way to shim things without removing the drop gear.


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  13. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    Yeah sounds like you have too much preload on the clutch leaf springs.
     
  14. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    So...

    Update on this from almost a year later....

    The clutch never felt right. It had a vibration, and I assumed it was out of balance. I disassembled last month to see the throwout bearing had made grooves into the fingers on the pressure plate. The throwout bearing sleeve had score marks on it. We polished it and now it moves smoothly, I am hopeful this is the issue.

    The clutch never fully engaged. You can still see the sharpee from the machine shop that resurfaced the flywheel.

    My biggest question right now, when I am looking at D in the WSM equation, that is a division symbol between the two numbers 3,5 and 3,8. That means divide them and get .921? OR, in the infinite wisdom of the WSM, is that a range and the dead center is 3.65? I need to know, as I am so far off on my set up that I'm considering the $6k conversion to a single disc (which Ferrari is out of according to Hill, so I couldn't buy even if I wanted....). I'm a pretty decent home mechanic, I just don't understand what I am looking at...

    Cassidy

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  15. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Technically, it confusingly is a mathematics division symbol they used, but it means the range for D is from 3.5mm to 3.8mm (i.e., dead center is 3.65).
     
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  16. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    I’ve had this clutch apart more times than I care to remember but I have some info that may help others down the road. I also made a few tools that help align things:

    First off the clutch alignment tool is the same as a GM 10-spline (I’m sure that’s been covered). It’s a 5 buck part from a regular auto parts store, works on GM from the 1930’s on. BUT you still have two discs to align and you can be off. I was off .070” vertical and .040 horizontal from center, so I 3D printed a sleeve that goes between the fingers on the clutch pressure plate and the adapter tool. Drop gear slid into place in seconds. Winning!

    Next up was throwout total travel. I made an L shape measuring device and marked where the throwout is at rest and where it is at full compression. So now when the clutch is back together I’ll know what travel is.

    We bench tested the clutch and measured it needed about .350” of compression for BOTH discs to spin freely. The rear disc spins at about .285 but you really need .325 and up for full movement on the front one. Ok, again, winning.

    Reassembled my setup, and I’ve got a max total travel of .300. That’s it. Not a drop more. Time to check the pedal. If there’s nothing wrong in the back, maybe something up front.

    Documentation on my car is thorough and I see the master cylinder was changed about 10 years ago. Apparently the clevis pin must have gone missing and Uncle Bobo the ‘mechanic’ replaced it with an 8mm bolt and locktite nut. What? Are you freaking kidding me? So as a result the clutch pedal has about .35-.5” free play, and you can move the clutch master cylinder actuator fork around loosely on the pivot. Pulled the bolt out (no small feat-crows foot with adapter and second socket all about 4” off my eyes) and sure enough, the threads on that 8mm bolt have rolled. The outer diameter is just slightly smaller and it’s all that it took to induce play in the system.

    Called GT Car Parts and the proper clevis pin was in stock. 5 bucks. 5 bucks? After I’ve had my clutch apart five times? Anyway it’ll be here tomorrow. I’ll adjust the threaded section on the plunger if I need to but I think this will fix it. Just insane. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login


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  17. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    I’ve been so busy lately I didn’t have a chance to thank you for posting this. Instead of my final shim measuring 2.65mm now they are .25mm, and I found some .007” shim stock that will do perfectly.

    I’m beyond grateful for your help. Thought you’d like to know ‘the rest of the story’ as Paul Harvey used to say....

    So I did have two issues...whomever installed the clutch 20 years ago installed the wrong sized spacers, which likely meant the clutch pedal was way out of whack. So someone replaced the master cylinder but used the wrong bolt causing all the release issues. So we had both a pressure and a release issue. Wow. Mind blown. So much for ‘easiest explanation is the right one’ this time.


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  18. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    Glad to hear that you've got it all sorted -- and that cheesy bolt prior repair reducing the stroke was diabolical! I had recently developed a little squeaking in my clutch pedal motion and getting up under there to just spray a little lubricant on the spring ends and pivots was a total beyotch -- to actually replace a mechanical component up there means you must be a Contortionist ;).
     
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  19. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Im so sorry you have gone through this. Its usually pretty straight forward. I have used the dual disc before with no issues
     
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  20. MOSS

    MOSS Formula 3

    Apr 28, 2004
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    One good thing, it will never wear out once you get it dialed in.
     
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  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

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    you mean 2,50 mm and not 0,25 mm?

    or an italian :)
     
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  22. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    So my clutch numbers were:

    A= 15.80
    B= 26.55
    C= 6.86
    D= 3.65 (I had been dividing 3.5/3.8

    26.55- (15.80+6.86+3.65) = ,24mm for X. In the US, that is easier to source in Imperial units, or .0094, rounded to .010" I had washers that were MUCH thicker (2,65mm, simply huge) as my "D" number was much smaller and therefore a huge spacer. My clutch came to me this way, and of course the clutch was burned up.

    Most issues I have had on this car are ALL poor labor repairs. Very little issue with the car itself. In the future, I could see myself getting an unserviced car, as it would avoid these pitfalls.

    Fingers crossed this was the issue!
     
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  23. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    By the way, here is the clutch alignment sleeve. If you use a standard GM 10 spline clutch alignment tool, just print this out and slide it over the end. It helps you set the clutches up in seconds and the drop gear slides right into place. I was off just enough using my eyeball method and I had to fight it every time. This worked like a champ!


    https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4804596
     
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  24. Veedub00

    Veedub00 F1 Rookie
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    what does that sleeve do? Keep the alignment tool coaxial with both clutch discs?
     
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  25. c4b4the04

    c4b4the04 Formula Junior
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    Exactly. That is precisely what it does. I was just .070 off lateral and about .040 vertical and I fought with that thing each time. This little part isn't needed on most single discs, and I am sure someone is good enough to eyeball it better than me, but this saved my bacon. I'll redraw the whole part with the spline tool as well, then it will just be a one piece.

    Man, I've got a lot of these little one-off's things I've done on this car. I should start a little sale page with them.
     
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