Clutch problem

I would like to hear Bradans thoughts, since they did all the recent work on your Mondial.


Joe

 

If your slave cylinder fails the pedal goes right to the floor.

This does not sound like a failed slave cylinder. My bet is that you have a defective pressure plate. That would make the pedal very stiff and would also cause the clutch to drag...which seems to be what you are describing, although I admit I may have misunderstood your description.

 

My situation was nowhere as bad as what you are describing. I just had some notchiness when I went on long drives. In my case, there are two competing theories on what caused the problem. It was either a defective pressure plate or oil leaking from the rear main seal onto the flywheel when the car got real hot. When we opened her up, there was oil all over the bell housing and the flywheel had hot spots and cracks everywhere.

Valenzo, I know it is usually unfair to blame the last person to touch the car on all the problems that follow, but in this case, it sure seems to the uninformed observer that Braden's hands are all over this problem.

Looking over their website, I didn't see any mention of any Ferrari trained mechanics on staff. Is there anyone with any Ferrari specific training at that shop. It sure seems like your car has gone to hell in a handbasket in the last few days, and I just want to make sure it is not the result of an inexperienced mechanic learning on your car. I don't mean to offend the good people on Braden, but they have opened themselves up to some explanation by beginning a thread on your car, which apparently has not gone to plan.

Also, I am really surprised someone would blame a slave cylinder in a situation where you physically cannot depress the clutch pedal. In my experience, if the clutch slave cylinder fails, it fails by leaking hydraulic fluid through the seals, which causes the pedal to go the floor. A similar situation to when you have a failed master cylinder on your braking system. Other than passing the buck, I can't wrap my head around how the symptom you described translates to a faulty slave cylinder.

by contrast, if you had some sort of defect in the clutch mechanism itself, depressing the clutch may not have sufficient force to overcome whatever obstruction or defect exists in the mechanism itself.



In most basic terms, if you have a defect in the pressure plate, the clutch will end up dragging, making it very difficult if not impossible to switch gears. You will hear a bit of grinding as you jump from gear to gear, and it will be most pronounced when you are trying to get from first to reverse or first to second.

Lastly, and this is a LONG SHOT. It is theoretically possible, I suppose that you have a leaking shift shaft seal that is causing oil to mix with gear oil. If that were the case, you could decrease the slipperness of the gear oil or, in the alternative, have too much oil in the gearbox. Another member had problems sort of similar to what you are describing and he believes his symptoms were caused by what I have described.

Good luck!

 

As far as not being certified Ferrari mechanics... We have never represented ourselves in a way to give the impression that we are factory certified. If you look through our section, you can see we have tackled some serious issues and serviced many cars with only successful results. The tone of your post is ridiculous. Ted's car was self inspected inside of a Manhattan showroom, a car he had never driven. I went to Manhattan in a blizzard to inspect the car free of charge. It came in to us with internal electronic issues that we corrected as you can see from going through the thread. The first time this car saw any road use by either of us was a little more than a week ago. A car that is new to him and only having a few issues after a 2,000 mile journey calls for a little bit more optimism. How about offering a congratulations on his new car and journey? Or an optimistic gesture like 'Once you straighten out these few issues, you will have a perfectly sorted car'?... How many owners can even make it to their local cars and coffee without an issue, let alone driving it across the country?

 

I would first like to start off by saying we have not been hiding or avoiding this thread. As you can imagine, we are swamped with work in the summer time. Even still, we have been in consistent contact with Ted. In no way is this response aimed towards him, however it is intended to clear up some of the unnecessary tension. Personal attacks on our work quality and integrity are way out of line. Taking the tone of us butchering the car is silly considering it completed a 2,000 mile trip. In no way, shape, or form do we offer a bumper-to-bumper warranty on cars because we did the engine-out service. A twenty-two year old Ferrari will have issues pop up regularly as every single owner on this forums knows. We can only fix what is currently broken and not predict the future.

Yes, we installed a gold connector kit on Ted's car. Some of you might know this is the engine wiring harness only. After nearly 2,000 miles, I think it's more than fair to say that the engine works just fine and the kit had been installed correctly. The air conditioning and power mirrors are in no way linked into the engine wiring harness. Next, we installed the SR fuse box kit. The fuse box is wired internally and as far as I know, was done correctly as always by Dave Helms. Our end of the installations were straight foward and simple.

We drove the car 80 miles before handing it off to Ted for his journey. During the week up to delivery, the AC emptied itself out and did not have any coolant in the system. I told Ted even if I had a week to repair it, it would not be enough time. There is a leak so it has to be found and then the car has to be converted to R-134, to be recharged. If you look at the engine-out pictures, you can see we never disconnected the compressor or touched anything in the air conditioning system. It stopped working and we never serviced it. Am I sympathetic towards Ted that his air conditioner was not working for his trip? Of course!! On the other hand, are we at fault for an AC leak or a component in the AC system failing, one that we never touched? No.

The power mirror switch worked on delivery. Ted was shown how it functions. It failed or started acting up during the trip. Again, we do not offer a bumper-to-bumper warranty.

Finally, yes we rebuilt the clutch and flywheel. We made tooling to resurface the flywheel and repacked it with Ferrari supplied grease. As far as I know, we are one of the few shops that have the means to offer the rebuilding of flywheels. The clutch is removed and sent out to be resurfaced by a clutch company in Kevlar. The slave cylinder appeared to be in good condition and void of any leaks when we serviced the car. I am 100% confident this was done correctly, as we have had multiple clutches and flywheels rebuilt in the past, only with success. It functioned normally for the 80 miles we drove the car and then it took 100 miles for Ted to notice stiff pedal pressure. If the clutch is found to be at fault, a new clutch can be purchased. We could also have the rebuild warrantied through our sub-contractor. Between rebuilding the clutch, flywheel, steering rack, and other components, Ted saved nearly $10,000.00.

As far as the service taking 2 1/2 to 3 months… Every customer is given the option to purchase brand new parts from Ferrari. Every customer is also asked what method of shipping they would like to use for their packages. The clutch alone was 5 days each way in transit and then 3 weeks to rebuild. We work on cars until we hit a stop and do not continue working on the car until the additional parts needed arrive at our facility. Our work plan is on a week cycle. Cars that hit a stop must wait before being put back into the cycle. Of course current projects are given priority, but we cannot stop in the middle of a job because another car's parts showed up. Most shops operate on this 'work-until-a-stop' basis. Ted has been an excellent sport about the whole process and I would like to thank him for his business and congratulate him on his new car and recent adventure.

 

And my suggestion on this issue as discussed with Ted is to open up the transmission and take a look inside. Diagnosing a car over the internet is nearly impossible and often pointless.

 

Hey Ted,
Bradan are the experts and I won't pretend to have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express but I am wondering if the Kevlar clutch is compatible with the t. I don't remember if you have the twin discs but if the Kevlar linings are too thick they may work ok when cold but when Hot (and Ferrari engines/transmissions get really hot,) the clutch discs may be expanding out of spec. If this were to happen I can see it being difficult to disengage the discs. Unfortunately if you Conan the pedal some type of jam may be possible that releases the discs but then the pressure plate is stuck for awhile.

Just a theory but when I saw the kevlar disc I wondered why anyone would put one in a t.
Our car has the factory clutch and it is perfect. Very smooth on the take-up but perfectly able to burn the tires by letting it slip just a bit and then releasing it. The 3.4 is not a high torque motor and therefore does not need a high tech clutch.

The good news is you have a t and it's a piece of cake to open up the clutch housing and take a look. Whether or not the problem is obvious remains to be seen.

But, when you get it sorted you will love the car. I have never had a problem making it to a Cars and Coffee problem free. However, I did do an all day 9 hour drive with Zaff and crew and minor issues arose. You can never really trust a t to be perfect, but they rarely leave you stranded as you have just proved.


Dave

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread and the other one. Normally, I wouldn't get involved in threads like this, but we have a new owner who is experiencing a parade of horribles and a shop who took the time to start a thread on their workmanship on his car prior to his receipt. At the outset, having a few close friends who are mechanics, I know how frustrating it is to be the last one to touch a car and then get blamed for all the cars sins. If you say nothing you did could have possibly caused the OP to have any of the symptoms he is now experiencing with the wipers/heater I'll take you at your word as you have a good reputation on this board.

As for the wait to get the car serviced, I understand that. In a vacuum, that's ok, but if the OP waited this long and the car was returned to him with deficiencies that were overlooked or not properly addressed due to your time constraints, that wouldn't be ok. In this instance, there is no evidence thus far to support that inference, and again, your reputation is not one for carelessness.

As for the shifting problem, the symptoms he is describing usually come down to the clutch mechanism, which you serviced/replaced. Granted, it is always possible that there is some material defect in the transmission, the shift linkage could be seriously out of adjustment, or that the OP drives like a kangaroo, but absent those scenarios which are comparatively remote, its pretty much down to the clutch mechanism. I think is is admirable that you conduct extensive test drives prior to delivery. I'm not saying you knew or should have known about the defect during your extensive test drive, or that you intentionally ignored it, but if a problem exists as a result of your workmanship or parts, you should take care of it---which I am confident you will.

FWIW, when I called Black Horse Garage who had sold me my car, shortly after receiving it, and complained that there was a leak from the gearbox pan following some work they performed, they sent a truck out from Connecticut to PA on their own volition, picked up the car, took it back to the shop, fixed the problem, and a leaking clutch slave cylinder---which I didn't even mention, and shipped the car back to me the next day. Total cost to me= Zero. To this day, I repeat that story often as an example of stellar customer service and I will recommend them as a shop that stands behind their work. Right now you have a good customer, trying to make his way home with a car that won't let him shift properly, among other things. Saving 10K on service is cold comfort when you are sitting with your car on the side of the road. I look forward to seeing you take care of him, based on your reputation on this board, I have no doubt you will.

 

Bottom line is Braden should be sending a truck to pick his car up and figure out what the issues are. Should have been picked up already.. Get movin..

R

 

How about offering an apology? You have blamed everyone but yourself. A great company will make amends, not excuses.


IMHO


Joe

 

It is a car, things happen. As you see, we can't determine what went wrong with your car. You need to get your car to a shop where they can diagnose what occured. There are many moving parts on any car. Get it professionally diagnosed. By posting here we offer guesses which lead to questioning a sponsor, there is no way this could have gone well. Get it looked at by a professional in your area, it would be silly to ship it cross country. Your original servicer is a professional organization, IF there were any associated issues I'm sure they will handle it appropriately and professionally.

To open up potential dirty laundry without giving the original shop the opportunity to work through this with you is in poor form IMO.

Congratulations on the car by the way, it will be fantastic when sorted. Any car with a lot of years and few miles and a lot of sitting will take a while to sort.

 

The OP posted because he was traveling across country and running into serious trouble on a variety of fronts. He was seeking help not trying to start a flame war. He has never thrown the sponsor under the bus and has shown incredible restraint.

As for the sponsor, I'm not terribly sympathetic for the position he finds himself in. He started the initial "major service thread." If you want to start a promotional thread to demonstrate the quality of your work, I believe you are equally responsible to address things when they go wrong. Even if you believe you are not responsible. Nobody would have taken it to the next level and questioned Braden's competency if they didn't put their competency front and center by starting a thread illuminating it.

As for how they have dealt with the situation. I am not privy to any conversations between Braden and the OP, but I hope Braden bends over backwards to make everything right in the event they are deemed culpable either through workmanship or a defect in the installed parts.

You can't have it both ways, if you want to say look at the great job I did on the clutch than you also have to own up and bend over backwards when a problem develops that appears to be related to your work.

 

To update the situation, Ted just informed me there is a puddle of clutch fluid under his car now. Can someone please diagnose this for me since it can't be the throw out bearing? I'm stumped.

 

Brandan: I would be tempted to repost this question in the 348 section. Many there can offer some takes, and some do not frequent the Mondial area.

r

 

I don't know if you are serious or not, but if you are, I strongly urge you to call one of our resident experts like Rifledriver or Dave Helms. From a PR perspective, I don't know if I agree with the wisdom of posting this question online. If I go to a Dr with chest pain, I want to believe the Dr. has the experience and competence to deal with anything that may erupt. I don't want to see him call out into the waiting room to see if anyone, including the patients, can throw some ideas his way


Putting aside sarcasm for a second, I know I have been giving you a bit of a rough time of it, but having read your past threads, I believe you are a good company who takes pride in their work and tries to do the right thing. You are relatively new to this forum, but please note the Mondial group is very protective of our own, and there have been more than a few incompetent mechanics in the past who have turned our beloved cars into a pile of parts.

When things go wrong on your watch, you have to expect to be grilled, just as you can expect to be exalted when things go right. By posting your major service threads, you have invited us in to complement and critique your work. I know its more fun when you are being complimented but not everything goes to plan.


Despite appearances to the contrary, we are all on the same team here.


I wish you the best.

 

It sounds to me as if the throwout bearing was first jamming on its shaft. It would explain the behavior, and the following leakage.
If it binds, it will be heavy to depress the clutch pedal as you're not just pressing against the clutch but also overcoming the friction. When the pedal is released, the pressure will subside but the release bearing is still binding on the shaft and pressing on the clutch, only to suddenly release itself moments later.

It sounds like the TO bearing should have been replaced. Been here myself once, too, despite I was SO sure the bearing was ok. After that I vowed never to save money on clutch parts ever again.

 

@BRADAN best post of the day Literally just wet myself.

 

I hope for their sake that they were not being sarcastic, as you seem to imply.

As evidenced by this and the other threads from Valenzo's eventful ride home, they are WELL short of the end zone to be spiking the ball.

 

I would suggest to let Valenzo speak for himself?
If I read it correctly this car had been sitting for a while? This is what goes wrong if such a car gets taken out for a longer drive, the gremlins that crawled in during that time all come out one by one. You never know how many there are and it's difficult to catch them all as not all of them crawl out at the same time.
The electrical issues sound like hidden defects to me, the wiper issue for instance has nothing to do with the work performed and i doubt the other issues are related to it either.

Spiking the ball would be very silly. This is a process such a car will need to go through. A lot of well-executed preventative maintenance has been done now and a few new things popped up. Perhaps a few more will follow, who knows, but it will stop. Nature of the beast, but hardly the fault of the shop.

Why the TO bearing was not replaced is another matter, I think that is an item that should normally not be reused in a clutch replacement, but maybe with such a large service Bradan has tried to keep the cost of the service down, which has now turned sour. Nasty situation but fixable.

 

A Top Shelf, very tasteful reply Ted.

 

Absolutely! Replace the TO bearing *if that's the issue* and move on. That's life.

Ted seems like a very nice, reasonable and understanding guy. Sounds a lot like me.

I am sure once the car sorted he will thoroughly enjoy the Ferrari experience with his family.