Clling on the brotherhood - a 348 Gerbox problem...

FBB, Ernie, No Doubt, Plugz and all,

A couple of weeks ago I thought I had an implosion pending (slight whine). I had it transported to QV London (very reputable race preparers, who maintain Marco Pullen's Formula Pirelli f'cars)... I KNOW I have a flywheel greasing issue...

Their finding was VERY positive and made me feel I was overly paranoid, they said I'll probably need a new release/flywheel bearing, but that there was no noticeable whine, and thus I was OK re. the gearbox.

I used if for two weeks and I started getting a nagging whine again, when at very low wheel RPM, eg. when setting off and at very low speed. The whine is getting progressively more noticeable so much so that my 5 year old remarked on it tonight when we went out for a spin.

Car has a total of 24,000 miles since 1989, I did about 7K in the last 12 months. Lots of city driving, a few daytrips to Paris (500 mi. return) and a single trip to Denmark (2000 mi in 3 days). Gearbox oil using Redline 75W90NS,and 75W90 in a 5:1 ratio. 6 months /3K miles ago, and Castrol 75W90 prior to that.

I noticed the following symptoms:
1) Whine at very low RPM which changes pitch as one accelerates.
2) When the car is rolling up the incline to my garage in first gear at snail's pace, I can almost feel a VERY slight regular vibration, almost as if driving over vibration strip markings on the road at 3 MPHmaybe 2 per second at 2/3 MPH. My paranoia is suggesting gear teeth meshing just slightly closer to the crown as opposed to the face.
3) When I'm at 4-5K RPM in fifth (a bit too fast, I know) but take the foot off the accelerator to the point of perfect coasting (where you can go off and on gear without using the clutch) I can feel a discerning vibration cum banging in the shifter, which gets worse when at the bottom right corner of the gate, but gets better when moving the shifter towards the middle about 5-7 millimeters. If the noise and feel is noticeable at "100%" and the window is 5-7 millimeters when in fifth, doing the same in 4th does the same at 10% of the volume with window of movement of 1-2 millimeters. In 3rd, 2nd it is not noticeable and I can't reproduce it in 1st.
4) When stationery, when the engine is idling with the clutch pressed, there is absolutely NO gearbox noise (as expected), so I'm wondering if the flywheel bearing is thus OK.
5) When stationery and with the gear in neutral, I release the clutch (no noticeable sound/vibration while engaging/disengaging the clutch), and there is a very faint whirring sound from the gearbox, the SAME whirring sound the car has done since I got it, I'd say normal except that I never heard a "normal" car. There is a slight ticking/tapping sound coming from the clutch bellhouse though. This means that with 1/2 the gearbox rotating, the clutch release bearing, pinion, drop, bevel and mainshaft gearing and bearings must be OK?
6) If you are in start stop traffic, in 1st, doing 2-3 Mph, then take your foot off the gas so the car "drops" against the engine RPM, I can sometimes hear a metallic "clank" from the gearbox, but ONLY in this situation - Are my layshaft splines going?
7) All the gears shift as per normal, but when in any gear and moving then the whine starts.
8) Took the magnetic plug out, just black peach fuzz, nothing large...

What have I got going on here? I'm REALLY paranoid now and suspecting the mainshaft gear bearing in the oil filter housing being well underway... Economy means the budgets are tight. The cheapest quote for labor I found is GBP 2.5K / USD 5K and I don't even have that budget. Do the bearings on that side self-destruct simultaneously or can they do so separately? Are we talking about something very deep? or does it sound plausible is it the side bearings?

What size ring-nut(s), what torque do they need to be tightened at, ring-nut tool and other specialized tooling do I need to "get in there", and finally can one "open and pop" these off the side, or is it a "deep" dive in the innards of the GB?

Got to admit I'm losing the bite of the F'car story, despite coming from Modena in Italy...

Marco
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Kind of both... It is most audible in gear and at very low speeds< 30mph. I can only really check it in 1,2 and 3rd gear, as otherwise the engine near stall rumble deafens it. in the 1,2 and 3rd gear, the whine changes from a low tone whine increasing in pitch as the sped picks up. I tried coasting back down and the whine is a lot lower in terms of volume, but changes pitch back down as the car slows in gear.

In 5th there is a grinding sound when the engine RPM, matches the wheel rpm and speed *eg. the very narrow bnd where you can shift in and out without using the clutch), it is only there in 5th...

I may come back to you re the parts especially if, once I work up the guts to take it all apart, I find that more than the bearing is shot...

Marco

 

How tight is F***en tight? Have you got a torque setting? Also what size are the ring nuts? I want to go get a spare set before I go at it.

What does a worn clutch bearing sound like (I assume noise when clutch engaged and thus cannot be causing my problem)?

My plan is (after draining the gearbox oil)
1) lift the car on its right side
2) Put 2 tonne stands under front and rear jacking points and stabilize/block right side wheels
3) Remove left rear wheel
4) Remove internal wheel fairing/splash guard
5) Remove the exhaust manifold
6) Remove gearbox oil pump housing
7) Loosen/remove ring/nut(s) on lay and main shafts
8) Remove bearing brace
9) Replace bearings
10) Clean plastic oil filter, check for overall "health" of area
11) Reassemble in reverse order, drowning the super-cleaned ringnuts in Loctite 222 and tightening them F****ing tight (or whatever the right torque setting is)
12) Let Loctite dry for specified time
13) Refill with 80% Redline 75W90NS and 20% 75W90
Pray and go for a drive looking for the same symptoms as before

If I get them, then go off and spend $7000 / sell car as scrap - I would have had enough!

Marco

 

Changed the fluid from a 6 month old 3000 mile Castrol 75W90 to 80:20 Redline 75W90NS and 75W90. The latter has been in for 8 months and had 4000 miles on it (no garage queen here...). It has worked perfectly until about 5 weeks ago when I started noticing the whine, which has got progressively louder... Can't see how the fluid could have caused that...

Marco

 

I'm handing it over to Rardley's - a great independent. Depending on cost, I'll keep or sell the car and quit the dream...


Thanks to all. They will let me take pictures so I can post the findings for the good of the brotherhood. The bottom end is USD 1500 and the top end USD 6000 (more if there is serious damage). At the bottom end I'll keep the car, at the top end I'll sell it, cover costs and go get a turbine rating for my pilot's license (got jet, but I want a turboprop twin)...

Marco

 

Thanks,

FYI. Eurospares has a Mondial t Cabrio box from '90 with 23,000 miles which "drives" for GBP 3750 (3000 for an exchange). He has a CH version from a swiss 348 from '93 (different mountings than the '90 one) for just under GBP 4000.

I'll go for that before spending 12K US...

Marco

 

There is only a "voluntary" warranty, eg. a few days etc. If I do "go there" then I will ABSOLUTELY take the back plate off it as well as the inspection plate. I want to make sure there is no corrosion as it has been hanging about for 4 years. I will also remove the bearing housings and checking all four bearings quite closely for pitting etc... In fact, if I do go there, good old Mike Lester at Rardley will do a full health check on it before we buy it as he will be doing the work...

Thanks for the suggestion...

 

Thanks to all...

I took it to Rardley's and after seeing them rebuilding a 512 Boxer engine, putting in a rebuilt Daytona V12, and 2 magnificent 348's, a spider and a TS, I begged him to help me remain addicted. He confirmed the whine is the main shaft bearing, but as the car was driving and shifting well, he suggested we should be OK with a bearing replacement. I brought him 2 new SKF bearings, (the superseded ones) and he was impressed I paid only GBP 38.00 (USD 75) for each of them.

What I am surprised about, is the fact that I have brought this "whine" to the attention of Verdi's (9 months ago) and QV-London (3 weeks ago), both telling me it was nothing... OK it has got worse as we went along, but I'm on my first Ferrari, they must have seen a bunch... Maybe they hoped that a bearing replacement would turn into a box rebuild...

I was shocked to find out my '89 Mondial t with 25,000 mi on the clock was valued at "only" GBP 10K USD 20K for a trade-in. I was considering the TS for a second, but don't fer that I want to upgrade my repair cost from GBP 3000 / USD 6000 to replacing the car for another GBP 15K / USD 30K.

I was disappointed my car devalued over GBP 9000 / USD 18000 over 12 months and 8000 miles... even taking the dealer markup out of the equation, that's quite the drop...

I'll let you all know what we find as things go on... I'll keep pictures of the bearings for the collective knowledge...

Marco

 

NEWS - part good, part bad...

The Main shaft ringnut was loose, but as Mike put it, is was only a little loose and was caught in time. He has already changed the bearings. The layshaft one was fine, and he tightened it all up. So we were well on the way to a blow-up, but it was caught in time. There was no damage at all on the main/lay shafts, or gears.

The part that is bad, is that the pinion is worn... n in his words it was due to wear and tear... The car did a verifiable 26K miles, with me in it for the past 9K. No childish driving or burn-outs on my side... What can it have been, the dreaded ring-nut on the pinion loosening up too?

He suggested the looseness in the box (occasional clank when taking the foot off the accelerator when at snail's pace in 1st) is due to the play between the clutch shaft and the pinion gear.

I can't find a pinion gear anywhere for the life of me, any ideas?

He also suggested that changing one of those, will wind up being "cost of exchange box territory" due to the set-up costs...

FU*K me, but everytime something is fixed something else pops up.... I also noticed thewire going from the fuse box area to the AC system is overheating and browned the plastic on the connector...

The market is collapsing - I wonder if setting fire to it is a cheap way out...

Marco