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Challenge wheel bolt question

Discussion in '360/430' started by Scotty, Nov 5, 2006.

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  1. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    #1 Scotty, Nov 5, 2006
    As most know, the challenge wheel (standard on the 360CS, optional on the 430) is held on by titanium lug bolts. I pulled my wheels yesterday to give them a thorough wash and coat of wheel wax. I ensured that no wax got on the lug bolt seat on the wheel. When torquing the bolts down, some squeaked loudly and felt a little grabby.

    The general rule of thumb is to never use anti-seize, grease, etc. on these parts but I was wondering if this situation is different?

    Thanks--Scott
     
  2. Ducati

    Ducati Formula Junior

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    #2 Ducati, Nov 5, 2006
    I think you mean Stradale wheel not Challenge wheel. They are different. Yes I use anti-sieze on my titanium lug bolts. But I am using Copaslip. It is a high temp anti-sieze and I carefully clean the threads each time I take them off. These are expensive but of course very light. As I recall the torque is 80 ft. lbs. Be careful to make sure the allen head is all the way in before putting a load on the bolt.
     
  3. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    #3 Scotty, Nov 5, 2006
    On my window sticker it says "Challenge Type Wheel Rim". I think the manual specifies 100N-M, or about 74 ft-pounds, as the tightening torque.

    Interesting on the anti-seize. I wonder what others think?
     
  4. tuonoR

    tuonoR Formula Junior

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    #4 tuonoR, Nov 5, 2006
    My understanding (this is from the motorcycle world not the f-car lugnut world so take it with a grain of salt) is that you should always use anti-sieze on Ti fasteners because of the metal's tendency to weld itself to other metals (most typically other Ti).
     
  5. Ducati

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    #5 Ducati, Nov 5, 2006
    Thanks for checking. The Challenge wheels on the 360 race cars are 18" and the Challenge wheels on the 430 race cars are 19" center locks. Anyway I would certainly use the anti-seize. The anti-seize gives you a much more accurate torque setting. Race cars use it on the center lock threads. There is no downside. Certainly they will not loosen up if torqued correctly. I would recommend against air wrenches as well. Also just enough anti-seize to fill in the thead valley. Hope that helps.
     
  6. tedwentz

    tedwentz Karting

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    #6 tedwentz, Nov 5, 2006
    I also use Copaslip on the threads of my ti wheel bolts. Been using that stuff for years with great results. It's probably not a good idea to put the stuff on the taper where the bolt seats on the wheel. The squeaking that you hear is most likely caused by the taper sticking to the wheel or wheel paint as you first loosen the bolt. Mine does this too sometimes. This "stiction" acts sort of like a lock washer and helps keep the bolts from loosening. If you put anti sieze here you won't have that benefit.
    FWIW - Porsche cautions against doing so and they torque their wheel bolts 20 lbs more.
    TW
     
  7. Scotty

    Scotty F1 World Champ
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    #7 Scotty, Nov 5, 2006
    This thread is kind of summarizing my concern. I have both road and mountain bicycles with titanium components and fasteners, and I totally understand the issue with dissimilar metals.

    On the other hand, I have a hybrid road/track M3 that I have converted from wheel bolts to studs and nuts. I have done a fair amount of research (though not necessarily exhaustive) regarding to lube or anti-sieze or not. There are well documented examples of the lubricating properties of anti-sieze resulting in over-torquing of fasteners, leading to stud elongation and failure, before an appopriate measured torque is reached.

    My limited understanding is that torque specs "can" factor in the friction or stiction of the the unlubricated thread interface, as well as the unlubricated taper bolt (or nut) interface. I guess my specific question is what does Ferrari specify?

    Also, for those of you using anti-sieze, how do you know that this isn't causing you to over-torque your fasteners?

    My point is not to be contrarian--I would think that the threads should have something on them. As near as I could tell when I removed the bolts, though, is that nothing was present on the threads from the factory. And I undertand the potential pitfalls with the following, but I would think Ferrari would be doing the right thing.

    I appreciate the continued discussion.

    Thanks.
     

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