News

Carburettor syncronizing "tool".

Discussion in '365 GT4 2+2/400/412' started by hoverland, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    #51 166&456, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    Nice. You may want to look into one thing in the development: equalizing manifold pressure vacuum may not lead to a 100% synchronised engine, especially at idle. This is a generic problem with MAP synchronising, because inlet manifold vacuum decreases when the engine wears; at idle it is basically a vacuum pump and as it wears, the maximum vacuum it draws decreases. This wear is usually not completely equal per cylinder and as a result the synchronisation also won't be.

    Some early engines using MAP sensors for the injection system got issues when they aged because of this, leading to the engine being too rich at idle and very light loads as it could draw less vacuum in that condition and the injection system injecting more fuel than required.

    I am not sure how big of an issue this is, but solving it should not be too hard, two different ways. Best way being the way a lot of sync tools work, by using already mentioned temporary calibrated venturis on top of the carburettors; the second way being by introducing the ability to compensate for compression loss in the software. The latter may still not be completely ideal since engine compression has different dynamics than its vacuum, and the need to test the compression prior to the synchronisation process, but it's probably good enough.

    Good luck, looks like a nice development.
     
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    20,313
    Texas
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #52 Steve Magnusson, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    That makes perfect/best sense to me too -- to match the bar graph location of each barrel to the physical location of each barrrel on the engine. I was wrongly thinking that you had four 3-barrel carbs, but with six 2-barrel carbs, that "group of three" wave-behavior seems more likely to be data acqusition/display related IMO rather than some real physical effect. One thing that you could try as an experiment is to connect the vacuum lines is some other pattern and see if that "group of three" wave-behavior on the display changes or not -- just a thought...
     
  4. alberto

    alberto Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 25, 2001
    2,389
    San Diego
    Full Name:
    Alberto
    Wow, that before and after is amazing and very revealing. I'm very interested in one when you have all of the wrinkles ironed out, but it looks like it's working great as is.

    Can you explain/show how the tubes are set up to take samples?
     
  5. Mike Florio

    Mike Florio Formula Junior

    Jun 19, 2003
    575
    NW Rural Nevada
    Full Name:
    Mike Florio
    Wow, terrific job, Harald. Thank you for sharing it with us.

    I've been thinking of a similar project using hot-wire MAF sensors on the input side of the carbs. That would be bulky and very expensive, not to mention the problem of sealing the air input. Your solution is much more elegant and well-executed.

    Those MPX4250A sensors cost around $10 per in single unit quantities, but I'm sure if we shop around and do a bulk buy the price could come down. Since the board looks production-ready, and SMC, not even a prototype! I'm thinking it's production-ready... yes? yes?

    Any plans for an 8-cyl version?
     
  6. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    3,004
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Sean F
    Now you just need to add exhaust gas A/F ratio reading of the exhaust sample ports and you'd have every base covered for carb tuning!

    Really good stuff though. As somoene else noted, and iPad/Andriod app for this would be awesome.
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Check the pictures in post #17 to see V12 as well as V8 layout. No problem.
    The "tool" can measure whatever (OK not all -but the Bugatti Veyron guys probably don't worry).

    The board is close to production ready that's right, but prototype is has DE9 COMserial data interface, and the Serial/USB cables we have tried are giving us some headaches, seems like their drivers are not very stable for our use. -so serial/USB converter need to be added to the board for direct USB connection and there will be some other improvements as well before production.

    Who has a serialport on their computer anymore ?? (apart from my softwareguru) ;)
     
  9. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Not all exhausts have sample/sensor ports, so got to find an alternate method here ;)
    Small thermocouples glued to each exhaust tube will give you an idea of what's going on inside. But that's perhaps material for another thread.

    (writing it all for iOS is next -you wait and see !!)
    Harald
     
  10. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    #58 hoverland, Feb 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Now I think we're pretty close !!!

    Software filtering modified and added a moving reference-line.
    Also (not so easy to see on the video) changed colors of bars to "navigation logic" -red left bank 12-7 and green right bank 1-6 :)
    Second video of tach; if you listen carefully drop in rpm when Drive selected and rise again when Neutral. Any feedback on how much drop you guys experience on carbed cars/Auto is appreciated.

    http://youtu.be/2vsB7vk1L6E
    http://youtu.be/EEarY8pQE-Y

    Also picture for illustrating hookup ;)
    (my apologies for the odd-colored valve covers)
    Harald
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. Jonny Law

    Jonny Law F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 6, 2008
    2,925
    Over yonder.
    Full Name:
    IT Guy
    Keep in mind that the prototype is always the most expensive one to produce. And probably not the last version produced.

    Your target market shouldn't be limited to just the v12 and v8 shady tree mechanics. I would think garages working on any older carb motor would be interested. I'll ask the garage behind my house what their thoughts are. That has always been the complaint of carb owners is the tuning issues.

    Also, I have a old Yamaha Seka with the 4 carb 4 cylinder that probably needs to be tuned. So it might be worth looking at the cycle shops too.

    Would be curious to see what would happen if you tuned the motor, and then took the car out for a drive with the sensor still on. Wonder how it would change with a load on the motor.?.
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. Jonny Law

    Jonny Law F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 6, 2008
    2,925
    Over yonder.
    Full Name:
    IT Guy
    You might try these guys.
    http://www.blackbox.com/
    http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/USB-Solo-USB-to-Serial-DB9-with-Cable-44-in-111-76-cm/IC199A%c4%82R3

    http://www.alliedelec.com/

    http://www.pccables.com/
    http://www.pccables.com/70607.html
     
  14. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,303
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Harald,

    Indeed an excellent job! I never thought of using a vacuum sensor, well done! I, too, had a similar idea to what Mike suggested earlier (using a MAF) but never got around to working on it because of the amount of mechanical effort (and production cost) for the MAF housing/venturi.

    As for the USB portion, one of the best USB to Serial convertors is made by FTDI and are relatively inexpensive and work well (hardware and drivers). It would be a trivial integration to your hardware and since FTDI provides the drivers there would be no real software/firmware effort on your side.

    As for the iPad, etc... be aware that to "officially" develop apps for the "i" Devices require all the development to be done on a Mac... which may or may not be acceptable to you and your software colleague (in my case all of my Engineering software is Windows based and so having a specific computer for "i" devices is unappealing to me). There are other development mechanisms for "i" devices that do not involve using a Mac, but these have issues too (because of this I am focusing on Android because I can develop on whatever platform I wish... Windows, Mac, Linux, etc). Also, if I recall the iPad does not have an direct cable connectivity mechanism (i.e. no plugable cables) and so you may need to provide a Wifi interface if you go this route... which is certainly doable, but in itself can create a bunch more things to deal with (embedded Wifi or on-board Ethernet with an external Wifi router, etc).

    Anyway, all the best with your development and I would say you are off to an excellent start!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  15. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Thanks Sam, yes we got our eyes on the FTDI chip. It's the one from Prolific we struggle with.

    Regarding the iOS development -I have good collegue (too busy though) that is a certified developer for Apple, and the iPads use the same cable as iPhones, so I can see it happen ;)
    (Partly because I don't have a Windows PC myself)

    Harald
     
  16. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    3,303
    Edmonton, AB Canada
    Full Name:
    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Harald,

    If you are having struggles with the FTDI chip, then something must be seriously awry, as I have used the chip for about 8 years without any major issues (in regards to hardware and/or PC driver software). I would be curious as to what problems you are experiencing.

    As for the iPad cable... I am not too familiar with them and their cabling so please forgive me. However, I do have some experience with the iPod and iPhone and the only cable I have seen is very "dainty" with a consumer grade non Industrial standard cable connector end which I feel would be very problematic for a Industrial device (which I would classify your device). What I mean here is that these high-pin out consumer cable terminations lack any form of robustness for field use. Most of these cable receptacles are designed for surface mount assembly and so have minimal or no through hole pins for structural rigidity... thus wiggling the cable and/or aggressive insertion will result in the receptacle breaking from the PCB. You can minimize this somewhat by designing a shroud, etc within your enclosure, but this adds cost and time.

    Depending upon your bandwidth needs, Bluetooth may also be an option as well as my earlier Wifi suggestion. Regardless of your direction I would investigate the iOS flexibility first (Apple buries/hides a lot of low-level functionality/APIs) before committing your hardware. I say this as a good friend of mine relayed his experiences at rolling out some iOS stuff that was to be used for some (basic) Industrial control... Overall it worked well,, but took literally 3 times longer to develop because some basic functionality needed was extremely difficult to do within the iOS.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  17. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Thankyou Sam for valuable viewpoints, appreciate that.

    The hassle we've had is with the Serial to USB cables, that's why we want the (FTDI) chip on the board, to eliminate that cable and driver issues for you as a user, and let you use a std USB cable.
    The wireless idea is a good one -will dig into that :) Thanks.
    Right now the prototype software and hardware is working as intended -so only details remains before it can be called a product.

    Regarding the iOS -that's only at ideastage, and idea is to plug the cable that came with your iPhone or iPad and plug it directly into board -but wireless is a lot neater -oh yes :)

    Harald
     
  18. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Progress update:

    Software now OK, see video to get a picture of the "zoom" function.
    (minor adjustment to positioning of average line when zoomed in remains)
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqIpoL5ldjc[/ame]

    What's holding us back at the moment is the USB-chips that is unbelieveably sensible for -guess it is HT-cables, still working on how to properly shield the tool. As per now it is ridicolously sensible and not stable enough.

    Question to you: The barrel bypass screws, what is the correct way of setting those??
    In a manual for the 365GTC/4 it says to fully screw them in as startpoint, and then (if needed) -unscrew as neccessary.
    People with experience are telling me to use 1,5 revs from fully closed as a startpoint.

    Anyone to share their experiences ??

    Harald
     
  19. Tassie

    Tassie Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2009
    342
    Tasmania, Australia
    Full Name:
    Wayne Clark
    Harald,
    Doing it the old fashioned way (by ear) for too many years, I have always used the 1.5 turns as the start. Always worked for me if you are starting from scratch.
    What you are talking about is the idle jet mixture.
    Keep up the good work and I will be interested in purchasing one when you are satisfied with it.

    Wayne
     
  20. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    #67 hoverland, Apr 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Thanks Wayne.

    The adjustment screws I'm talking about is "A" on picture below.
    (But you are right about 1,5 on the idle jet mix ("B" on picture below) -thanks)

    Harald
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2008
    806
    Arizona
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Yes, start with all the "A" screws fully in to start. Then use screw "C" (make sure the linkage is not effecting your adjustements, ideally the linkage is disconnected) to set the lowest vacuum reading on each carb (either barrel) to equal to the lowest reading on the carb next to it. Once the vacuum readings on the lowest vacuum barrel for each carb all match, then use srcrew "A" to lower the high vacuum readings barrels on each carb. In the end I bet you find most of the "A" screws fully in. If any are open it should only be on one barrel of each carb. The "A" screws are only for fine adjustment, originally installed to improve emissions, the old carbs do not have them.

    The 1.5 turns is the starting point for screw "B". As a rule of thumb, if it is less then 3/4 a turn or more than 2 1/4 turns then your idle jet or your ignition timeing is wrong.

    Cheers Jim
     
  22. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    Thanks for sharing your very useful experience Jim

    And you are right -most "A" screws ended up beeing almost closed if not completely after aligning all barrels !

    My conclusion is that starting with "A" screws all closed probably the easiest way.

    A useful tips for you all is that the "Syncronizing Tool" revealed that the "A" screws were not necessarily closed when they felt seated! -when appying a little more force than I would without the display aiding me -many of the screws continued to regulate, some up to a whole turn.
    So what I did was to slowly turn in each "A" screw until changes actually stopped, then backing out one of them to equal on each carb.

    Anyway -at the end, the "A" screws ended up beeing "close to closed", the "C" screws are just touching, and the engine behaves very well ;)
    (I actually thought the "A" screws were unique for the old carbs -have not seen them on newer DCOE's ??)

    Also for information: The "B" screws were set at 1,5 out and when checking CO and HC values at a certified garage -very little correction needed (less than 1/4 turn).

    Harald
     
  23. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2008
    806
    Arizona
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Be carefull when tightening the screws, I have seen the B screws overtightened and crack the barrel around the screw.

    From memory the A screw was put in production around the late 70's early 80's. Recently they have rereleased the older carbs due to demand from the older cars.

    Sounds like your engine is running perfect. They are amazing when they are dialed in right. Congratulations.

    Cheers Jim
     
  24. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    #71 hoverland, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi all and thanks for your patience
    Finally time for an positive update;

    At last we got the shielding/USB right, the new board v2.1 tested today with success.
    Even solid-coppercore HT cables didn't affect it.
    And as a bonus less cables because tool draws it's power from the PC/USB cable now.

    Remaining now is assembly/soldering on sensors and mounting in box. And doing the math for a price.

    (For the next phase of project: If you look closely at the picture you will see some extra contact points not related to MAP sensors, this is for "EGT" sensors - so we can use same circuitboard for 0-850deg celsius temp sensors.
    Software is all ready for both pressure and temp, and will detect automatically what sensors connected and adapt.)

    Regards
    Harald
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  25. fastradio

    fastradio F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician BANNED

    Apr 26, 2006
    3,652
    New England
    Full Name:
    David Feinberg
    And to think all these years I've used custom 12-tube mercury manometers and a pair of high precision vacuum gauges. I'd sure be interesting in having this "modern" tool in my shop. Looking forward to the completed design and patiently await pricing...Great, great job!
     
  26. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,503
    Somewhere, anywhere
    Full Name:
    Eddie B
    Dito....fantastic job..,awaiting price!!
     
  27. hoverland

    hoverland Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2010
    265
    Norway
    Full Name:
    Harald Ø
    #74 hoverland, Aug 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    At last some news :)

    Now everything is sorted, and 7 units ready !

    -I finally got the tool I visualized for myself and fellow car enthusiasts, and if anyone else can see the use and savings in time/quality when synchronizing multiple carburettors or troubleshoot whatever induction system on motorbikes, boats, cars or other toys, the tool is ready for immediate shipment.

    Got my son and his iPhone to help me make a video showing practical use. Not very professional -but gives you a general idea of concept.
    Manifold Pressure Tool - YouTube
    More information at my website http://www.haabakken.com
    For queries please use E-mail on website.

    Salesprice is NOK 5.500,- (approx EUR700,- GBP605,- USD930,-) ex VAT and ex freight.
    Boxed content is "Manifold Pressure Tool", software/drivers, shielded USB cable, sensor hoses, see picture.

    Regards
    Harald
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  28. jacques

    jacques Formula Junior

    May 23, 2006
    836
    Los Angeles/Florida
    I must say..what a fantastic thing you've done here. Even I could operate this tool.. It makes me just want to go out and buy a carbed car just to justify getting this wonderful instrument...."be the first on your block, to". Jq.
     

Share This Page