Has anyone replaced the 360's standard high carbon steel brakes with a carbon ceramic system? If so, how much did it cost? I think the CS had carbon ceramic brakes. I wonder if Brembo makes such an aftermarket replacement option for the 360? I don't think Ferrari will let 360 owners buy the CS carbon ceramic system.
try prosport in the uk go to ebay punch in this number they have a set of CS brakes on there but they have been sold in the last week or so 300354953521 good luck
If they have these brakes, Prosport Ferrari's website is; http://www.prosport-ferrari.co.uk/ I had my brakes converted by Prosport Ferrari. The CCM are a simple upgrade, they just bolt on and instantly give a 15% stopping distance advantage and ofcourse no brake fade on the track. They also weigh 16% less than the steel brakes so this unsprung weight helps handling too despite them being much larger than the steel brakes. I did this conversion on my 360 and it really makes a huge difference to stopping power and ofcourse handling ability when you charging on. F430 / Challenge Stradale CCM Brakes Upgrade In my quest to weight everything as I remove the kg's on my car I now present you the weight of the Carbon Ceramic brakes as fitted to the F430 and Challenge Stradale models vs the regular Steel brakes from the 360 Modena. I am yet to weight the stock brakes (anyone know their weight... would be really helpful if you for comparison of any weight saved!) Here's my findings... Front: CS Brembo Front 6-pot CCM caliper with pads: 5.94kg CS Brembo Front 380mm CCM disc with centre bell: 6.77kg Total 12.71kg Front brakes (per side) Rear: CS Brembo Rear 4-pot CCM caliper with pads: 4.72kg CS Brembo Rear 1-pot Handbrake caliper with pads: 2.06kg CS Brembo Rear 350mm CCM disc with centre bell: 5.86kg Total 12.64kg Rear brakes per side Total Front (pair): 25.42kg [56 lbs ] Total Rear (pair): 25.28kg [55.7 lbs ] Total Front & Rear: 50.70kg [111.8 lbs] I notice that Ferrari kept the weight pretty damn close front to rear despite the rear ccm discs being 350mm vs 380mm (the handbrake calipers even everything out, I pretty sure the handbrake calipers/pads are the same across Steel and CCM). Important:You also need to replace the CALIPER bolts with longer ones for the 360 vs the Modena as they don't just 'fit' onto the Modena without these. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Lets put some perspective into this debate. Until friction brakes are later replaced with electro-magnetic brakes (likely to come to the market with introduction of replacement for 612!) with their no moving parts and nothing to wear out we are left with refinements of the old friction brakes we all still love and use. Here's the case for CCM's... 1. The Ferrari factory Brembo CCM's improve the unsprung weight significantly (and thus contribute to overall better handling) vs the stock Brembo calipers/discs. On the 360 they are 16% reduction in unsprung weight while going with a substantially larger disc for improved stopping distances. 2. They last longer than the old steel rotors/pads combo meaning your car is on the road more of the time and less time in the workshop. 3. They don't fade (ever) on both fast road and track applications. 4. They have a larger surface area without being detrimental to handling. Ferrari engineers could go larger resulting in improved stopping distances. At least 10% improvement in 60-0 in attributed to larger discs. 5. The surface of CCM brakes don't rust and you don't get tonnes of horrible brake dust to clean of your rims. You could go on. In summary they are an improvement. The decision Ferrari made to make them standard fitment on the later F430's was done to address the exact point thats many people on this thread have concerned themselves with, i.e. the price of replacements. Rightly or wrongly, with the decision to throw away steel brakes into the same bin that they marked 'manual gearboxes' they got benefits in price. Ferrari could pass on reductions in price across the board (which they have btw, compare the original prices of ccm's to the now price). With the economies of scale of buying in bulk straight away the prices came tumbling down overnight and still continue to fall. Still they are more expensive but over time this will change. Its also worth pointing out that the CCM discs have changed in composition several times since they first appeared on Enzo (and later CS before finally making them standard fitment on the F430 before it itself was obseleted by the 458..). Its evolution and early adopters always pay more for that in any industry, automotive is no different. The manufacturing processes are improving all the time and the lifetime is getting better and better, so much that the improved discs will eventually last the lifetime of the car. On the points about F430 Challenge cars dumping their brakes to replace with Steel, this was primarily due to regulations in the racing series which meant that they where excluded from racing with CCM's that season so quite a few disc kits found there way onto ebay and the like. Many enthusiasts got themselves a bargin. I switched from stock Steel setup to larger CCM setup from CS (calipers/discs) on my 360. The result was nothing short of sensational, I couldn't have been more happy with the results. Not only would the car stop quicker, it accelerated quicker too and handled better. Absolutely yes, you can buy steel brakes (essential racing brakes) lighter for the same size of disc but they will still fade and are harder to source parts for in the future and many don't even come with a working handbrake! (to be honst parts supply is always the problem you have moving away from factory parts). There are many things you can do to improve the unsprung weight even on the CCM brakes. Room for Improvement The center bells are stainless steel and weight a fair bit, these can be replaced with lightweight alternatives (saving substantial weight) as can the long caliper bolts be replaced with titanium ones. This no doubt gives ferrari the option to fine tune in the future without too much re-development costs. Anyone in the aftermarket wish to make a lightweight center bell upgrade to save a few kg's of unsprung weight?? -T Image Unavailable, Please Login
Center bell (steel) weights and mounting bolts (also steel) Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Pic of my 360 with ccm... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Dear 360 Trev- Thank you for all the great information and analysis. I think you must have the most experience when it comes to optimizing a 360. I imagine I will need to change my rims in order to make room for the larger braking system thereby adding to cost of the conversion. I am going to do some pricing and determine if gaining a 16% unsprung weight advantage and additional stopping performance is in the cards for my 360. (I was under the impression that there was a 40% weight loss.)
Here's the case against: They are super expensive, especially if you track your car, and provide almost no benefit for a street car. The main benefit is no brake dust. Nope. The rotor size does not affect stopping distance. That certainly is a benefit, unless you track your car. However the frequency of replacement of even the normal brake pads is so rare that many owners may never even have to change their pads. Nope, not possible. Any improvement in stopping distance comes from different tuning of the ABS system and/or different front/rear brake balance. For a street car, they are just a money maker for Ferrari. Yes, in absolute terms they are an improvement, but not worth the money. Can you quote the rulebook? I'd be shocked if this were true. If I were to acquire an F430 challenge the first thing I would do is convert the brakes to iron. The operating cost of the CC brakes is just far too expensive for the value received.
My 360 Challenge and it's iron brakes had much better stopping distance than the CC on my Stradale by a large margin. Part of this should be due to the pads, not the rotors. I agree that CC are all but useless on a street car, but they look cool. The only real benifit I see on the street is no brake dust.
I knew this would become a religious debate on Steel vs Carbon just like F1 vs Manual. I personally (and Ferrari for that matter) don't agree with the assertions that the carbon ceramic brakes 'lack benefits' on a road car, they are a huge improvement and contribute substantially on the CS's 3.5 seconds better lap time around Fiorano than the Modena but only for those who like to drive their cars hard in the twisties and not just the straights. Having personally racked up thousands of miles in my own 360 for years with its stock steel brakes and then performing the upgrade I can honestly say its one of the best upgrades you can do to the 360. Lets not forget many of the really large steel rotor upgrades aren't very road friendly either having no provision for a parking brake or requiring special order parts. On the carbon rotors themselves are only approx 3-4kg's so if you want the ultimate lightweight get yourself a set of machined lightweight centre bells (factory ones are just under 2kg's each) and replace the heavy caliper bolts with Titanium ones. I'd be surprised if steel discs of the same size bettered 3-4kg's at 380mm diameter. With some optimization here you can easily beat the unsprung weight advantage of the best top of the line steel rotors. Unsprung weight advantages in the aftermarket are like cat and mouse, one maker out doing another, ad infinium. Regardless of whether you go for upgraded Steel rotors vs carbon is your entire choice but the upgrade does work and it does make a huge difference in stopping distances and unsprung weight, so much that you have to re-calibrate the way you drive hard on the track, you can stop much later and with much more confidence once you get the tires and brakes warmed up a little. They inspire great confidence on fast road applications. The main negative as far as I see it are the concern regarding replacement prices. For me i don't get that much. I think nobody ever bought a Ferrari because it was 'cheap' to maintain! Its a worthwhile upgrade for those that like to drive the cars hard. They are standard parts so you can just buy them from your main dealer which is a big bonus for long term owners. The carbons really do last pretty well too and don't warp with heat either. Who knows if that big brake upgrade will still have spares parts available in 3 years from now, let alone 10. Whatever you ultimately choose, big brake kits really feel and work great, buy the lightest, biggest ones you can find that match your budget and you'll be significantly faster with later braking and faster acceleration out of bends.
Brakes featuring CCM discs offer much more responsive braking as well as consistently excellent performance in intensive use. One of the most obvious advantages to adopting them is their exceptional fade resistance fade in fact compromises the drivers feeling of control when it comes to the pressure required on the brake pedal and responsiveness. The CCM discs have a longer life under normal conditions, a fact that has clear financial advantages. Furthermore, even with continual track use, CCM brakes offer greater resistance to wear for better durability on track. The CCM braking system also cuts around 15 kg off the cars total weight which not only improves overall performance but also reduces unsprung mass and thus improves vehicle dynamics and ride comfort.
Hi Trev You make some very good points about the CCM brake system advantages. Price is the only negative. What did you do about your exhaust system? I have the stock headers with the pre-cats and I am concerned about cracking and the retrograde movement of bits into the cylinders with disastrous effects. I have the CS sport exhaust muffler which you have.
Has anyone priced the conversion, with say, the 430 brakes? If so, I'd like to know the cost to convert. Art
My experiences contradict many aspects of your post, but point 4 is the most glaring. There is no discernible stopping distance difference between CCM and steel rotors, unless you are comparing CCM with overheated and fading steel rotors. Bigger is not necessarily better. For best performance you always want the least rotating inertia and unsprung weight and still meet the braking heat absorption criteria for the car's intended use. Therefore, regardless of CCM or steel rotors, you always try to pick the smallest rotor diameter, thickness, and even down to the # of integral cooling fins in the rotor. For instance we might use 72 vane rotors at certain brake intensive tracks and switch to 36 vane rotors at less demanding tracks. Do large CCM brake rotors with big 6 pot calipers look racy and nice? Of course they do, but they have got to be one of the worst performance/cost options right up there with fender shields. I have 3 sets of CCM brakes from 430C sitting in my storeroom collecting dust, because I have switched to steel.
I haven't checked the rule books lately, but a few years ago FIA GT forbade use of carbon brakes. So Vodafone sponsored Maserati MC12 had to race with steel rotors. I think carbon brakes are allowed now but not sure about that. By the way, real racing carbon brakes are NOTHING like CCM brakes.
A very well thought through post. On my road car I dumped over 15kg's of unsprung mass by just going from the stock factory Modena brakes to the CS CCM's. I'm not suggesting similar improvements cannot be made with Steel, its just that the CCM does indeed make a highly significant and noticeable improvement in braking over stock Modena fare. There is no doubt both the factory CCM could be optimized as well as aftermarket pro racer steel rotors providing both better prices and braking tuned to your requirements. For a racing car I absolutely agree with everything said here, all logical and all makes perfect sense for competitive racing. I'm merly just suggesting that there is still a lot of weight savings to be had from the road going CCM's left over stock brakes, those heavy center bells on the CCM discs and fixings are nearly 2.5kg's per wheel so clearly the Ferrari/Brembo partnership could do better if they tried hardner. On a non optimized road car the bigger brakes (at less 15kg's weight really is felt!). In comparison the discs themselves aren't the worst weight offender, its the center bells. Yes, CCM rotors aren't very cost effective and more R&D is required to tune them to be competitive with the best of steel aftermarket. Clearly Ferrari have more way to go. I do think they will get better though and are very likely to change radically lighter before magentic brakes eventually takeover which I'm betting they will get working perfectly in due time. On a car destined for fast road/occasional track use (not a stripped out roll caged pure racer), the CCM option is good, it does exactly what is says on the tin, it weigh's less and stop's quicker than the normal factory steel's.
To reduce rotating inertia you can do a lot better than CCM brakes at minimal cost. Wheels and brake rotors rotate at around 1300 rpm going 100 mph. Meanwhile your engine flywheel is whizzing around upwards of 9,000 rpm depending on what gear you are in. So my money is on the lightened 360 flywheel at minimal cost. I have lightened flywheels on my 360C. 430C OEM flywheel is already very light so no point messing with it much.
I retrofitted the CCM brakes on my 2005 F430. It's the best option I could dream of. The difference in handling and brake performance is huge whatever the weather conditions are. Just remind to brake slightly from time to time when you're riding for a long time on the motorway. Cold, they can be a bit surprising the first half second you're braking. The hotter, the better. As I live in the mountains with lots of mountain roads, brakes have a hard job to do. The CCM brakes never failed and the more you use them, I mean hard braking downhill before sharp turns, the stronger they brake. I can only recommend them Cheers, Stef Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
