In doing my major... I am finding black rtv everywhere... Water pump cover had tons of rtv around the o ring... Took the cam sprockets off... It was a bear... The bolt was rtv'd in... The cam end caps were rtv'd on... The o rings in the end cap were rtv'd in too... In the diagram below, the o ring around the cam bolt part number 31 had tons of black rtv... Parts Book Table Contents I know the cam is hollow... So the cam bolt has to be made leak proof... Is the o ring enough? Or are you supposed to slather the area around the o ring in rtv? The prior major was done at the dealer, so I am assuming it was done correctly...? On the bright side, this motor had no leaks... As a separate question, how is the hollow cam pressurized with oil? On a porsche there is an obvious oil line going to a spray bar.... Parts diagrams don't seem to show a flow path. Just curious...
oil pressure is thru the cyl head from the block. Main cam journal feeds the camshaft, the cam cap with the groove is the 'inlet' for the oil.
nice have fun and enjoy in the cam there is the same oilpressure as all over the engine where there is pressure and the oil comes out on each bearing with so much RTV there can not be a leak a little bit of TRV is not bad, but too much is not good. and if you use so much you have to wait 3 or 4 days before starting the engine, so you know the RTV was getting dry
Yes mark of true hack! Use NO RTV on cam bolt O-ring. This is a pet peeve of mind. I hate it. You don't want pieces of rtv fouling oil galleries. Don't use it. This was from my pristine new to me 22k mile 550M garage queen only serviced by the "best". Now that it is in my hands it will never see another one of those "pros" again. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I guess my question is this... If a very respected dealer does it like this, there has to be a reason, right? I assume they are trying to avoid upset customers and rework due to leaks? This car was serviced at continental and lfsc its entire life. I found evidence of red sealants and black rtv in all the same places... Clearly it wasn't just one dealer mechanic that did it... A leak at the cam would be the worst possible location for a leak... So, can folks verify that they aren't putting rtv on o rings anywhere? Because everyone I found was well slathered in rtv... Bo
The only place I use RTV is at the 'cam cover to gasket' and at the junction where the cam cover gasket meets the O-rings at the front of the cam (just a small dab). RTV on a flat gasket is an exercise in seeing just how thin a layer can be applied! I use Hylomar on the 'cam cover gasket to head' and most everywhere else - including the O-ring grooves. A very thin coat of Hylomar is all it takes - if it squishes out of the joint in any significance, you've used too much. Hylomar stays in a gel like state and will not plug an oil galley (unless stupid quantities are used). Since it stays as a gel, it will not distort an O-ring and thereby inhibit the O-ring's ability to form a seal. Hylomar does not act like a 'glue' - that is why it is on the head side of the cam gasket.... when I pull the cam cover, the gasket stays on the cover and the gasket/RTV can be scraped off with the cover while it is sitting on the workbench. Cleaning the head of Hylomar is relatively easy. Amazon.com: Hylomar Aerograde Ultra 2.5 oz. Tube: Automotive I always keep in mind - RTV plugs oil galleys!!!! ymmv Vincenzo PS: Hylomar helps holds O-rings in place during assembly - like the O-rings around the spark plug wells. PPS: This is a pic of the 'professional' work I inherited... Image Unavailable, Please Login
35+ years fixing Ferraris never gooped those O rings but have cleaned up those messes countless times. You do not need rtv there and FNA dealers are little to be desired IMO. There is always cream that rise to the top via the factory but often they are robot part replacers picking up a paycheck.
So you put the rings in completely dry? Saw some folks use loctite anaerobic here? Is hylomar helpful? Couldn't hurt?
Hylomar is a major contributor to the English reputation for not building anything that does not leak. It was a terrible product 50 years ago and has not improved.
Brian, would you just put the cam bolt o rings in dry? Seems many do that... Read most of your posts, but seems sometimes you mention you love loctite anaerobic and three bond (Honda bond)... Any value in using either at this tiny oring? Just surprised dealers are using rtv in copious amounts. As an observer it's hard to really figure out what's right or wrong... Appreciate everyone's input... As I have only worked on one testarossa, it's hard to look at a dealers work and say it's sub par Don't want to reinvent the wheel, just trying to avoid a leak... In the porsche community, folks often use silicone lube on all O rings... Haven't seen that mentioned once on this board...
Have you tried any lately? You might find the more modern formulations better than those of 50 years ago. Since Hylomar does not dry to a solid, it will not interfere with the differential movement typically found in an O-ring application. RTV does not belong around O-rings. Hylomar works great to get the plug well O-rings to stay in place during assembly. ymmv, Vincenzo PS: In the previously posted pic - the Hylomar is blue color and the small dab of silicon in the corner is black (hard to see).... the silicon dab is intended to close the gap between the O-ring and paper gasket. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXiVZIBoHL0[/ame]
No sealant on the pulley bolts. Some three bond products are very good. They are also marketed as Yamabond and Hondabond. If an O ring needs to be held in place, grease is best. Silicon grease is fine. I used to be shop foremen at a dealer, a very big one. Trust me, no reason to think as a group they are any better, any smarter or any more skilled than anyone else. Good silicon type sealants have the give required for sealing O rings. 4 reasons those joints leak. 1. Only an idiot and Ferrari would rely on a butt type sealing point especially with paper against rubber and especially in a place where there is a great deal of oil as there is at the cam seal end of the valve cover. The separate seal housing sealed with an O ring and the paper cover gasket was a laughably bad design. The 2 valve heads were a far better design in that respect. They had a better design and changed it. 2. It needs to be totally oil free when the sealant is put on and assembled. 3. The paper gaskets fit terribly. I spend quite a bit of time making the grossly over priced and badly made gaskets fit before they are assembled. 4. On the Testarossa after shut down, given enough time the oil rises to the level of the exhaust cam seals. When the car sits they are under oil.
Yes. Grease can be used as an assembly aid but makes it difficult to seal at the parting surface of the head. 518 is a poor choice for a flexing seal and Hylomar is a poor choice for anything. 518 was designed for gasketless surfaces. It works fine with a gasket but does not flex. Silicone type sealants do that very well. In a cured state they are very close to the O ring in flexibility.
Have you tried 5127 ? it's a flexible anaerobic sealant. 509 is also flexible but more for vibration then elongation & flex.
Cool, thanks for the info guys... Trying to do this as methodically as possible. I would hope to avoid all leaks... But on the flip side, if I need to take the motor out again it will be 10x faster next time... I figured out that part of the reason I love working on cars, is the process of learning. It's fun to see how everything works. It also gives you time to clean and detail the motor, suspension, etc... For folks doing their own major on a testarossa the first time, I would bet the time involved is 100 hours plus over a bunch of weekends... There is an aweful lot of research involved, so that one doesn't screw up... Working on a ford is more like working on a lawnmower in terms of complexity. Parts are cheap, most of the motor is easily accessible, and the motor doesn't come out if there is a leak...
So there goes the theory that the Ferrari dealer does it correct. Some people believe that only dealer engine out is the way to go. A responsible, caring, patient, loving owner can do a very thorough engine out. And This Ferrari chat is a big help in that respect.
Yes... Except when you go to sell a lousy job at the dealer carries more weight than a great job from an owner with hundreds of pics...sigh
