Build and Tune Headers

Very nice headers. I e-mailed them for pricing.

http://buildandtune.com/products.php?cid=11&sid=26

 

I emailed him lasted year $6500 I would just buy 2 pairs of fabspeed headers for that cost.

 

I spoke with the owner of the company. Nice guy. I had a nice conversation with him about the 355 headers he made. He gave me a starting price of around $6700, but thought it could end up costing more. He built those headers awhile ago. He thought that the cost of the 321 s/s had probably gone up. I told him about Goth's 360/355 exhaust conversion which he seemed very interested in.


Jimmy

 

At that price and uninsulated, he wont sell one set on the planet earth.

 

Compare his weld quality to the images available over at Burns Stainless.

 

unless you are going to track your car alot or you got alot of cash to throw away 304 is the way to go, leave the 321 and inconel for the big boys meaning the risi and the flying lizard racing teams that have money to blow or get a super deal from there sponsors and For the price there is very little hp gains. At least with the 304 there is some cash left over to do other mods, just my 2cents and 2cents ain't worth much. LOL

 

Why do people think that Ferrari owners are so stupid? Because of statements like this.

 

*pulls out the popcorn and grabs a seat*

 

There are probably a couple of SoCal shops that could make a very nice pair of long tube headers as shown in the picture, and maybe charge a little less, but not much. Jim at Rewarder Headers in Camarillo, and John at Hytech Exhaust in Orange County are the two that come to mind. When Belanger Headers used to be in El Toro, he would take one-off jobs like this too. I think our local guys would probably ask for $4-$5K for something like this. That price buys their craftsmanship, i.e. awesome welding, fit and finish, and maybe even stepped tubing.

 

Again, the only thing that is disrespectful is your post. It is disrespectful to the professional craftsmen who from time to time try and offer a superior quality set of custom headers to the 355 community and get the "no headers are worth more than $2K" crap.

I'll excuse myself from being an expert as I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate someone who is still a couple of thousand miles from the ball park.

You need to contact Christian Michelotto in Italy and ask him how much he would charge you to make a set of 355 headers.

After you wake up in the cardiac care unit you might want to call Takashi Uno at Saclam in Japan I'm sure he can ease the pain once and for all.

Be sure to requote your post to them...I'm sure they will have to buy another phone after they politely end the call.

 

Without stepping the middle...

I think the difference we're talking about here is the cost of prototyping vs. the cost of production.

For production headers (meaning volume following prototype) the costs of the initial development are spread across the future sales, which allows for a quality product to be mass produced within tolerances and then subsequently sold en mass.


For one-off applications, or hand built materials (similar to the car itself in many ways) the cost can't always be defrayed across multiple units, that along with more expensive materials and the cost of time/labor from someone who has the highest level of skill in the market, ends up with a high price tag.

I would be willing to wager that if you went to the same person making hte ferrari headers for 6k and asked for a set of headers with the same quality build spec for a honda they wouldn't vary much (less material and time only due to cylinders).

All that said, I couldn't justify the price of the 6k header, but I have no doubt that the quality would exceed that of the 2k. Similar to finding that elsuive tenth on the race track, it never comes cheap...

 

If you go over to Burns stainless, you will find the price for merge collectors. Basically, the cost for six 2-1 merge collectors in 304 is at least $900. (321 merge collectors end up at $1060) And at this point, you have not bought the tubing to build the headers, the flanges to attach to the heads, the expansion chamber, or various fittings to connect to the exhaust. Nor have you build a set of heat shields, or had the headers coated.

The only headers one could make at $2000 for a Ferrari would be from mild steel. These would last but a year.

 

No sweat. Occasionally the extra $$ also gets you someone's lifetime of experience imbedded into the custom headers/exhaust that you buy. Example: Back in '93, I took my Mercedes 190E-2.3-16 down to Belanger's shop to have him fab up a header-back exhaust system. (The Cosworth motor already came with a real exhaust header from the factory.) The man himself, Jerry Belanger, put my car up on the lift to do the work. He pointed at the midpipe and said, "I'm going to put in a step (increase in I.D.) right there and you are going to pick up a ton of midrange torque." And that is exactly what happened when I got the car back from him. He found extra torque from a diameter shift that no other manufacturer at the time (Ansa, Remus, Supersprint, etc) had considered. If I every buy a Viper, Jerry Belanger's headers are going to be the first mod that I bolt on.

 

John at hytech quoted me a very reasonable price for a proper 321 header. I am sure that they would be less if we were doing a group buy of 10. However, many people will still think 4k is too much, its not for a properly built 321 header. It's high but not absurd, its also a custom one off piece with considerable attention to detail. The only way you'll get something of similar value cheaper is if u have the skill to build it yourself.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

That is a fair price for a set of headers made by hand using top quality materials. FYI it's not a Ferrari tax as some people suggested. My good friend spent 4k on a custom 321 ss manifold for his turbo Honda.

 

Guess that writes off my header effort! Didnt the drawing you sent me of your 355 have 8 Zoomie Pipes sticking out the engine lid?

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Mosport-1964-06-06.html

Review the first 4 place cars and the header designs, an extreme in pictures if ever there was!

There is sound reason the First on Grid is where it is..... OK, maybe the little known doorknob driving it had something to do with that as well. I am already into rebuilding the Harrison headers about 1800 in parts alone. Due to these being the first example of Cross Over headers... I have to save as much of the originals as is possible, saving history comes with a cost!

 

Sorry guys but when I read $6500 for a set of headers I shat myself! I am no babe in the woods and imho $3500 would be ALOT more reasonable. Hell I know people who build immaculate headers but they are not thieves.

I bid you adou!

 

Same reason I ditched my header effort.....

Yes, 8 zoomie pipes angled 15 deg. rearward for aerodynamics(McLaren style ha ha) but mostly to keep from igniting my soft top. I can reproduce these for $2K.

Rogers car was straight up...lol........height of the tips was solely determined to keep the intake from sucking in hot exhaust.

Seeing this old race at Mosport and having just watched Formula One:The Killing Years, I have been a little depressed.....it brings back memories of the times we lost some of our drivers....I can remember more than once loading the transporter while crying like a baby.

Get the Harrison Special running so we can drive it after our squirrel suit jump.

 

This is Joe at Fabspeed motorsport.
My Ferrari header flanges are investment cast lost wax for 355/360 headers so that the flanges are dead flat and we have adequate strength material thickness to machine in AIR injection for USA emissions smog laws. My flanges required substantial tooling and investment and are not available on the shelf and are not laser cut.

We use high velocity merge collectors and t304l stainless steel mandrel bent tubing all hand tig welded. We have a Unison Limited England all electric CNC mandrel bender unisonltd.com. Given the tight engine confines specialize material and labor along with custom gaskets and detailed dyno development along with heat shields included there is a lot to making small volumes of Ferrari headers.

If the car had a big engine compartment like a Chevy Camaro then 1 piece headers might be possible.

T304l stainless steel is aircraft grade super durable stainless steel and is all that is required for these cars and virtually all cars. 321 stainless steel is 304 with slight titanium enrichment for slightly elevated temperature range. 625 series stainless steel is called Inconel and has even higher temperature range.

No one here needs Inconel or super specialized stainless steels for the street cars or DE club race cars. Trust me I have researched it with a veritable who's who of NASCAR sprint cup header manufacturerer parts suppliers to Penske Racing Indy car ex chief header fabricator to F1 header suppliers to Porsche alms exhaust systems.

You might say then why is there 321 and Inconel 625 available and why should my car be worthy of it. For pure race cars where lightness is super highly prized as a engineering criteria in order to win championships and attain sponsorship money.

All out custom race header fabricators use these 321 and 625 materials that have higher heat tolerances but in super THIN gauges to save weight on the race car. Saving weight on all out race cars is achievable but using for example 625 in super thin lightweight thickness 20 gauges. I have held Sprint Cup V8 NASCAR headers in my hand and they are likely 7 to 8 pounds lighter than a comparable 16 gauge stainless header. Same deal as Penske racing and formula 1 . Weight savings is paramount so they use higher temperatured rated stainless steel and instead of 16guage race stainless they use super thin materials to save weight.

Here is the catch my friends. Professional race teams know that they have substituted higher quality temperature rated materials but have sacrificed strength and long term durability as they use extremely thin gauge tubing. The result is yes they saved weight BUT pro race teams data log the time these parts are utilized on the engine and then THROW these headers out after the material engineering department schedule states the parts life has expired. This is the norm in race cars and aircraft. Bar codes and expiration dating.

The Penske and ex Holbert Racing fabricators visit my shop regularly and mentioned that thin wall headers were being replaced constantly. Porsche and Ferrari enthusiasts no matter how hard core can't and shouldn't pay for disposable headers. Some people also like to bench race and brag that their parts as Mark Donohue said were made of Unobtainuim!

I hope you all had a great weekend.

Fabspeed utilizes 16 gauge 0.065" t304 for quality million mile lifetime limited exhaust systems

 

Thank you for a thorough explanation of a header system build requirement.
Hopefully this should explain to all what is involved in building a quality header.