Bradan Mondial T major service.

Personally, I think this thread is no longer productive. Ted has not contested Braden's claims regarding the workmanship, and until or unless he does, we should give Braden the benefit of the doubt regarding their findings.

While I agree that Braden may have let their frustration get the better of them in responding to Ted's statements, that was not the focus of this thread--Braden started this thread to showcase their work, and it ended--apparently--with their workmanship surviving intact. If that is the case, the $15K Ted spent on the service is not out of alignment with what I would expect given the amount of work that was done. While I may chose to only deal with certified f-car mechanics, if the work is done competently, than the price is not objectionable...at least to me. Furthermore, there are lots of people who chose not to use Certified F-car mechanics, and even more who do the work themselves, so if the workmanship and methodology are sound, my preference is merely my preference. In this instance, I don't know what experience if any Braden has with older Ferraris and while that may give me pause before I could recommend them, I am comforted in the knowledge that they put their money where their mouth was and stood by their workmanship to the fullest. Obviously, Ted probably wishes he went elsewhere, and Braden probably wishes that too. But there are lessons to be learned from this thread all around. The first and foremost being that contrary to popular belief--not all publicity is good publicity I think we have now discovered the reason why Braden is the only sponsor posting their work on this forum.

I said before that if this all flushed out I would give Braden a virtual pat on the back and tell them good job. Well, unless I hear otherwise---Braden, consider your back patted

 

I suggested that you PM me if you have any issues. You chose not to. I will stop posting on this thread for good. I wish you well in your future endevors. Good luck and God bless.

Joe Malez

 

If i ever publicly take the tone taken here in relation to one of my clients, i hope someone smashes my keyboard! OP, I think you need to invest a few bucks and consult with a publicist that can give you objective advice. I don't know if you were right or wrong with respect to your service and I certainly understand that some projects just go wrong, but the way you are addressing it here has ensured that you will not have me as a customer and I suspect that sentiment will be shared by others. it is a big internet and this is bound to turn up when a prospective customer does his due diligence. Not throwing stones, I just feel badly watching someone self destruct.

 

Joe, Joe and all the rest, thank you for your support, i really appreciate your concerns.

I'm on vacation with my children on a quiet beach in SC and i'm trying really hard to unplug from my office, as well as the thought of my car back up on a lift in NY, so forgive me for not chiming in lately.

Bradan has emailed me regarding the oil leak and I in turn have responded after speaking to some fchat experts. At this point, I believe its wise of me to have them replace the oil drive bearing and the tensioner pads because Dave Helms convinced me awhile ago that this should have been done the first time around and since my engine is out again, it only makes sense.

I do not know what the labor charge is going to be for the RMS, bearing, tensioner and the pan reseal and whatever it is i'll keep that between Bradan and I but in the end, i just wish it would have been done the first time, like in the TOB issue. Its not the money, God has blessed me to be able, its just the darn hassle and the time and principle of it all.

No JoeZ, this thread is vital for all who are faced with a Major, to make sure they know what to ask for and to expect before, during and after. IME, Nothing should be reused and there are no shortcuts to a comprehensive Major service on our cars.

When this concludes, can you think of a better guide for the uninformed than this thread?

 

As a former Mondial owner, I went through this thread. I see no good or bad guy. Things pop up on old f cars on a daily basis. There is enough room here for reasonable people to disagree. IF Bradan made any mistakes, that proves they are human. If they stepped up to the plate, as it seems they have, it proves they have integrity.

 

Jumping into this thread is like purposely lunging at a red hot poker but as my name was brought into it I feel the need to do so.

I am able to see things from both sides as I am not a 'hands dirty' involved party and am a multiple car owner. That said, there are points that owners (of all Ferrari's) had best clarify their positions on. It is my hope that this discussion will turn into a productive discussion. Lets review a few "Expectations" and see if they are realistic on an old car. I do this without expressing any opinion of the work done, or an owners expectations, and do it with only good intension's. None of us were there to 'see' the problems, before or after, so lets leave that alone and just deal with general questions.

"" i believe that an engine that is removed and gone through meticulously over a 6 month period shouldn't leak when its put all back together""

There is a big difference, BIG, between a "Major Service" and a disassemble and "Engine Reseal". I, for one, am unable to put together a dry engine in the last 15 years without risking its well being using gobs of silicone sealant. The gaskets available today, the o-rings.... I just cant do it no matter what we try unless I put the engine at risk. IF the expectations are that a major service completely seals one of these engines for an extended period of time, to a dry state.... Either a major service just got hideously expensive or I'm out of business. I have not replaced a rear main seal, aside from doing an engine rebuild, in decades.... should I have?

Expectations that every "consumable part" is replaced regardless of its current condition, re; TOB, is in my opinion something the owners DO NOT really want. Consider the cost of this expectation! In the event an early rubber seal TOB is found I give the owners a choice of a reseal ONLY if the TOB feels good. I educate them on realistic expectations of its life and we go from there. Automatic replacement.... on a Mondial OR 348..... at the current cost of a TOB, seals and flange...... you REALLY want this? I think not, hell, I KNOW NOT, yet it was expressed. It makes a nice catalyst for an argument but is completely unrealistic, think of the ramifications of this expectation!

I have asked, in a number of threads, in a number of sections, What does a "Major Service" involve and include? Owners have expressed their opinions in an untold number of threads, what their cost expectations are but NEVER what that cost includes! I, for one, make two separate invoices on these cars. One that is for the standard Major we do, and a second for additional work done at the time of a Major. Folks in this thread have incorrectly described this Major as costing $15K.... it did not. There was a Major done, and at the same time a great deal of unrelated supporting work.

I think it is a realistic expectation that all involved in this thread post what they expect a Major to include and at what price, and lay this issue to rest for good. I make this request with no opinion of my own expressed regarding any work done on this project or any of the owners expectations. That frankly is no business of ours and is between the shop and car owner. I have 8 out-of-state cars scheduled for this winter and will now expect EVERYONE of them to put in writing EXACTLY what their expectations are before I accept them.... because of opinions expressed in this thread. It darn well might be that I am way out on what I 'think' owners Want. As one of the Evil, 40 year veteran in this field, shop owners... it is me that needs the education and to be brought up to speed with what is currently expected. I dont want to hear Bradans thoughts on the subject, those have already been posted, I want to hear the owners thoughts and bring this back to a productive discussion.

 

On my Mondial that Bradan serviced the RMS was leaking. Keep in my mind this is a 3.2, not a "T". Dan suggested we do the clutch as well and informed me the labor would be free. I would just pay for the parts. Have 25k on her and it was to my knowledge the original clucth. Done deal. Been working with Dan since last yr. He has suggested a few times while we are in there items like this that benefited me. Some items we have discussed too where we agreed you have to draw a line in the sand at some point.

Dan, has never hesitated to address the few recurring issues my car encountered on his dime completely.

 

I have read this and the other Bradan service threads and have found them to be educational. Without trying to taking sides Bradan has two pages of service related threads in the New York section and this is the first I have seen where a problem has occurred. This appears to be a case of miscommunication. With any car things can happen 1 or 1000K miles after a service has been completed. A perfect example with my car. I performed a timing belt/bearing and seal change on my car last fall. After the job was completed I started the car and triple the work I had done. Immediately I noted a gas leak from the check valve on the fuel pump. I went no where near the fuel pump during the service. It was a coincidence that the check valve started leaking around the same time. Things happen and it appears Bradan has stepped up trying to make things right no matter who's fault, if any, it may be.

As Dave Helms correctly stated, I think it is best for both parties to have a clear, written, itemized understanding of the service that is to be performed and the associated costs prior to commencement of the service. Any additional items/costs the mechanic(s) may find should be clearly noted in writing and either signed as accepted/declined prior to starting the additional service. That may decrease future chances of a blame game scenario.

For both parties involved, I hope the issues are corrected, the owner has 5 years of major maintenance free driving prior to the next scheduled major and both walk away from this with a few lessons learned.

 

Dave,
You and I had a great conversation regarding what constitutes a "major" not to long ago. Based on that conversation, I called around to a few respected shops to see if what there thoughts were. Generally, except for some minor deviations, the general consensus seems to be that a "major" constitutes belts/bearings cam seals, valve cover seals, etc. Pretty much everything that would be included in Ricambi's major service kit. Other items, like Water pumps, spark plug wires, etc, and anything else that may be needed peculiar to that particular car, are determined on a case by case basis.

Without addressing what the expectations and discussions were in this case, there are some clients who want their car to be returned perfectly, and are willing to pay the cost for that service. I think in Ted's case, Braden was trying to be frugal on Ted's behalf, where Ted would have preferred to spend more money and have the car meet his expectations. I can appreciate Braden's approach, and I can understand Ted's position.

Beyond that, again this is not related to Braden, but there are customers out there who simply want their mechanic to fix everything they can find, regardless of cost, and deliver the car back to them perfectly. Whether that is called a major by some people or not, is not material.
In the end, as you aptly put it, it is about expectations. What are the customer's expectations? are they reasonable? Does the customer appreciate the costs involved in fullfilling his expectations? Does he appreciate the nature of these cars? Can I fullfill his expectations in a prompt and reasonable manner?

These questions are easy to answer in a vacuum, but unless you are a mechanic who knows these cars like the back of their hand, it will be difficult for you to anticipate all the potential variables, and make proper recommendations.

It's also about trust. You need to trust your mechanic that he has your best interests in mind and he is not trying to line his own pockets. To do that, your mechanic has to triage the items of concern to him and the client, and to have a frank discussion at the beginning. As you noted above, its almost impossible to make these old cars perfect. The client needs to understand, instead, what can reasonably be accomplished, what work should be done, and what work could be done, but is wholly unnecessary. This is a very difficult equation, and you need a tremendous amount of experience and familiarity with these cars to get that balance right.

These are just my thoughts.

 

Dave, this (see bold text above) is an awesome topic for a new thread.

 

I've always thought that if you get the right shop, they take the car apart, call you to discuss what they see and the options. That should be standard every time the motor comes out of the car. It avoids this kind of mess. I've never had a major for less than 12.5, because we've made sure I never needed a tow truck.

Art

 

What a joke- "I'll call you out in a public forum, but you can't reply in public, just PM me..."

 

A terrific conversation it was, I enjoyed that!

As these cars age they require many different things being watched and maintenance procedures adapted to these requirements. This, yet the "Major Service" that most expect and price out has remained unchanged since the cars rolled off the show floor.

I am the one that ends up confused. As I stated, I do not replace all of the parts others suggest are absolutes. On the other hand I focus on many things that others consider a waste of time and money. I may very well be the one doing a disservice to my clients based on my own assumptions.

There are parts brand considerations, mileage considerations, service interval considerations, history considerations......

""it will be difficult for you to anticipate all the potential variables, and make proper recommendations.""

Nope, it will be flat out Impossible without a baseline.

 

Dave:

You've got an excellent reputation in the field, but if I may suggest one thing: when you do a major, a careful inspection of the entire car should be included. It may cost a little extra, but in the long run, it avoids, or at least minimizes the problems showcased by this thread. No guarantee that you'll find everything, but I suspect you'd find most of the issues that could come up in the vehicle.

Once the inspection is completed, you would then contact the customer, advise them of your suggestions regarding repairs not normally considered a part of the major. I'd list each and every defect seen, and your suggestions as to whether to repair, ignore, or replace and the cost options.

Had this been done here, I suspect most of the complaints, or items under discussion here would have been either dealt with, or known to the owner, who would then have been responsible for either ignoring the issue, or paying for the repair at the time of the major.

I'm in the service business myself, and have found that a complete discussion with the client is generally the best way to avoid this type of problem.

Art

 

Based on my past conversations with Dave, I believe he does exactly what you are suggesting to the extend possible and reasonable. He also has an incredible institutional knowledge of these cars going back decades. He knows what they were supposed to do when knew, what items have been susceptible to degradation through age, mileage, etc, and most importantly, what commonly accepted perceptions regarding these cars are correct and which ones are utter bunk.

I know I'll embarrass him a bit by saying this...but the guy is Yoda. If he told me I needed to paint my car pink to preserve the metal underneath, I would own a Pink Testarossa...he is just that good.


FWIW, I REALLY think this should be a new thread too. If Dave is open too it, maybe we can have a moderator move this discussion.

Just my. 02

 

God no, now a pink Testarossa is in my head, lol.

 

I'm not a mechanic, but it looks like the issue --stated a different way, is: who's responsibility is it for your car maintenance and to catch problems before they happen? Certainly it is the owners responsibility, and if they expect a service provider to give them their best estimate of the future needs, then they should ask for it.

As a car owner, I just don't think it is realistic to expect a mechanic to know 100% what may fail on my car, beyond what is in the manual, and what experiences they bring to the table.

 

I agree and disagree.

I think owners need to have realistic expectations about the reliability of their vehicles. You can't make a car perfect no matter how much money you throw at it. Parts will fail, new or old. The best you can hope to do is be diligent in your care of the vehicle to minimize the collateral damage when parts do fail, and keep your car running as properly as possible.

However, as to what needs to be done to accomplish that goal. It is far more realistic for a mechanic to know what a car may need than an owner. Its like saying, my chest is bothering me, it is more realistic for me to know what ails me than a trained physician.

However, to your point, it is not realistic to expect your mechanic to have a crystal ball. Nobody can know exactly what may or may not happen to any car. However, the reason people go to highly trained and experienced mechanics is for the expertise. If I give my 1986 Testarossa to my mechanic, for example, he will know based on his experience with the marque, what types of things Testarossas of this age tend to need. He will then examine those components to see if they are beyond their due date. He will then examine the car for things that should not be, and he will make recommendations based on that. Will he tear down the engine preemptively-- I would hope not!!!. So he could not possibly know the condition of every component, but he does everything he can within reason. When the car leaves the shop it is better than when it went in. His responsibility is to communicate to me the limits of his examination and make suggestions to me on what should be done, considering the risk vs. reward.

It is the owner's responsibility to pay attention to his car, note unusual occurrences and accurately convey them to the mechanic. It is not the owner's responsibility to interpret what those occurrences mean. It is the owners responsibility to timely maintain his vehicle, but it is the mechanics responsibility to outline what that means, make recommendations and perform the necessary services. Beyond that, the rest is luck.

I made the mistake with my Mondial of trying to outsmart the mechanics and becoming my own expert. I spent a fortune on preventative maintenance the car didn't need based on my "expertise" gleaned from endless hours on f-chat. It was stupid and the mechanics almost begrudgingly performed my requests. By contrast, the prior owner of my Testarossa simply sent the car to Algar every year to perform any necessary maintenance and fix anything they could find. He trusted them to know what that meant, his only responsibilty as he saw it was to report any unusual occurrences he observed. This car was bulletproof for all that time, his maintenance bills was very reasonable, and when I had the car PPI'd they couldn't find anything to do!

This time around, I am going to do my best to ignore the tech threads and let the mechanics I trust keep the car working as it should. It saves me stress and probably a lot of cash too.

Not many people would do this because everyone believes mechanics are crooks. That is nonsense. If you are not going to do the work yourself, find the guy with the best reputation and let him do his thing. If his explanations are not satisfactory or you no longer trust them, get a second opinion or find a new shop altogether.

Just my .02

 

Great points all around again, Joe.

In this case the owner never physically owned the car. It was shipped directly from the dealer to the service facility for the major and additional items. So there's no baseline performance or notes that could have been taken, other than what items may have shown up on the PPI.

 

Thanks. Just to be clear, my post was simply in response to the general major discussion posted by Dave. My posts were not intended in anyway to be a commentary on Braden or the situation with Ted (which is why I am all for starting a new thread on this topic to avoid any confusion).

 

Mechanics are like dealer parts prices - in some cases they really bite you, yet in a lot of cases they're really cheaper and of better quality than you'd think at first glance. It's a matter of knowledge I think. Know when you're being had, and know and when the cost is just plain reasonable compared to what you're getting.

I have been on both ends and it's the bad ones that stick the most in your brain and keep you away from trying the good. Ok, and sometimes I just plainly hate to pay someone to do a job I like doing, know how-to, have the tools for and will do at least equally well. And yes I can be a very stubborn nitpicky person

 

great discussion! thanks

 

A very good post, but I think you omit a very important factor. You use someone with expertise because they know more than you. That holds true in most circumstances. You go to a specialist in Ferraris because they are supposed to know more than you. That's why it is incumbent upon them (the mechanic) to inspect your vehicle, look for potential problems and advise you accordingly. Most shops do that in one form or another. Some do it better than others. What I've been suggesting is a more formalized version of that program. Putting it to use would avoid problems evidenced by the comments in this thread.

Art

 

And???????????...........How are things coming along gentleman?






"The suspense is terrible. I hope it will last"

http://youtu.be/rw_R9SS3kQ8?t=1m59s


Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory 3:08 minutes.

 

My car is there, the engine is out, parts are on the way and thats where it stands. Ive opted for more "while you're in there stuff" so there will be more costs for me but so far, Bradan is stepping up and taking care of me. I will post more when there is more of an outcome.