Didn't msdesign (?) do a Restomod Boxer not that long ago ? That was kind of cool. Singer where are you ?
I don't see a market for a singer style boxer. I've contemplated doing that and have done a few resto-mod performance versions but the reality is boxers aren't plentiful like 911's, much harder to work on and cubic dollars for parts. All that to devalue the car and reduce the buyer pool to about 10 people. You can buy a 911 for $20K as a starting point or even a 912 for less and have fun with it making it into whatever you want without the financial implications and it would go around a boxer on the outside in a tight turn.
512M powered BB512 I did. Worked great, just not a lot of people willing to go that route. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
That was for sale at SF Sports Cars at one point, right? Its amazing. I’d love to see a driving video.
Probably then it went for auction in Florida a few years ago I believe and I've had contact with the new owner shortly after the sale.
Good day David, There was another fchat owner that (Markpeboxer) that modded up his Boxer in 2008. He created a full thread of the process: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/512-bbi-resto.137758/page-11 Cheers, Sam
The difference as I see it. Restomods destroy the essence of the original car, what you're left with is a silhouette with too big wheels. Singer is different in that it treads a fine taste line, they call their cars 911 reimagined. Ina sense the singer is the best of 911s rolled into one, call it a greatest hits. As others have said lots about a ferrari rests with originality, stary too far from that and you have an unsuccessful mish mash. With a boxer maybe we should be talking about the boxer fully sorted, or finally developed. Look at e-types, they now run radiators that work, electric cooling fans, good electrical systems, motors have been rebuilt to proper spec. But they can look in almost every way stock(except radiator and fans) and such cars are a delight to drive, well accepted and fetch higher prices because they're still show winners but you can use them Lets look at the flaws of BBs esp the BBi. Poor Ac and poor cockpit heat shielding is a relatively uncomplex fix and can be done in a manner that looks totally stock. Same with ignition systems. in fact most boxers have upgraded ignition systems already. Lets move on to the engine and transmission's One weak link the rear diff carrier, Newman does that upgrade already, no concurs judge can see that. Motor internals, the early 70s were not kind and to fit the Injection the car went to flat cams. Today once again Newman (as with porche people) has figured out how to make high lift cams work with the early FI. What else sucks on the motor, well the pistons and rings are pretty crap. and the compression ratio is pretty low. Today there is a fix for that too. So you end up with a BBi that to the outside eyes under hood(rear clam) completely 100% stock. yet there is easily another 60Hp on hand, more Tq and importantly that power does not go flat at 6k rpm but runs hard and strong to 7k rpm, an expanded powerband does way more than more power alone, and here you have both.. In fact the only thing that would not look 100% stock is the wheels, because there is not getting around the stock wheels and attendant crap TRXs. There are now 17 in wheels out the Uk that look stock and allow you to run modern rubber. The boxer it is meant to be. All the rest of the car is fine. The suspension is actually quite good with the right tires. the steering is good and very much enhanced to greatness with modern rubber, the stock brakes are more than adequate for road, esp with some good pads. But now imagine we have a boxer really much much faster lest call it intoxicatingly quick because not only is peak Hp more but there is power across a far wider band and more everywhere, you just wnat to keep winding it out. An ac that works and a cabin that stays cool. You can even run Bluetooth through the stock stereo. besides the wheels no concors judge could tell, and you can always put stock wheels on for shows. We're not talking Resto mod here, or a singer type car, more like a sympathetically updated boxer, same as they do with e-types. Ive though about this a lot over the years. Each drive in the boxer always starts as a pleasure, the power seems immense and responses right there. But truth be told 10-15 miles later there are disappointments. That power that felt so great, well as you press harder, it just goes flat past 6k rpm instead of building more to a crescendo. So you're left surfing the torque below 6k more than really having it build power as it sings higher and higher to 7k. Then there is the limited use profile, because the cabin does get really hot, so its spring and fall crisp days only with windows open. To me these are correctable while maintaining the absolute essence of the car. What the boxer was meant to be, and probably where it would have gone had the 70s compliance issue not been so hard at the time. I used to think the answer was the 512M engine in the boxer, and while truly epic you then loose that stock concors car that is part of the whole ferrari thing and you're into singer or restomod territory which Newman points out does not fly in the ferrari world. Having driven Newmans Koning I came to understand what a flat 12 really could be as it ran hard to 7k rpm, and then riding in a newman modified (stock looking) BBi I understood how the injected motor could in some ways take that even further in terms of raw power if not sound. Yeah, it will never have the carbs gulping, but the exhaust can make tunes with a bell system or ansa sport( a period factory option) knockoff. if boxers are getting restored, I believe my spec above is the way to go, its certainly not going to cost much more if any to go this way, besides wheels its 100% concors stock, and you can put the stock wheels on for concors if you must. Whoever then drives it will be a convert, and for 350-450K these cars will start to seem underpriced by 400k. Internally we can call it the BBIm with the m standing for modificata, a better car than a 288 then for 1/10 the price.
Hey boxerman. Are you saying some BBi's came from the factory with an Ansa sport exhaust. I have heard this before and I have heard other people say no way. I am truly the second owner of my BBi. I have the paperwork from the factory and there is no mention of the exhaust. I have an Ansa sport The family has no recollection of a different exhaust. What's your thought?
my understanding (and more informed minds may weigh in) is that it was a factory approved dealer installed item. I think you’re just a cross the bridge from Me these days ?
I also had the ANSA Sport exhaust that required different manifolds as well. Mine were white, as seen in the attached picture. My understanding is that this system was installed post factory. Image Unavailable, Please Login
BAt car 16k miles Looked nice just went for 246k. This period reminds me of the time boxers were stuck between 85-95k. Then they were maybe hitting 125k, all of a sudden I think it was 2013 the shot up Into the 200’s created a few years later in the mid to high 300s and then Sunk back to the 220-275 range where they have been for years. maybe the next time there is a run say 2027’or whenever we’ll see these cars go past 500k and the. Settle into the 300s. Unless Of course a boxer becomes “discovered” and every “collector” gotta have one
Good day all, Here is the car Sean was referring to (chassis 51075): https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1984-ferrari-512-bbi-16/ I think $246K was a solid number for the car considering it is a Federalized car that still retains a lot of the Federalization, but also with a few needs... well, needs is a strong term, perhaps "things that an owner may wish to do" might be better to say... like suspension bushings,etc. A car that presents well and looks to be a very nice and solid driver. Cheers, Sam
Sam thanks for this. Imo this represents a good boxer, that yes time and age means it has some needs. Its probably a nice example of the average good BBI out there. It doesn't have major flaws or needs, and its not newman/classiche restored. Like any used Ferri it can absorb 20-50k to be put right and still not be worth too much more than was paid here.. IMO if the market were strong or trending up this would be a 275K+ car. The price it fetched seems midpoint of that we have seen the past few years. That tells me that any significant boxer liftoff is another market cycyle away, the rule of thumb the past few decades has been boxers at around 40-50% of a Daytona. Miura which used to be 50% of a daytona ie same a boxer are now at double a Daytona and countaches which also were at parity with boxers are now depending on year are close to, at parity with or above a Daytona. We have yet to see the boxer liftoff. It is trading in its same relative range rising and fallign with the market in general.
The cabin heat issue is not an easy fix with windows open or closed. Open windows, the heat from the front clamshell grill flows in behind you through the open window as well as over the roof. Placing your hand on the outside of the windshield while driving you can feel the hot air flowing over the car. Your hand reaching behind your head you'll feel the warm air behind you. Heat comes from the console through the slide controls and various holes in the firewall. The rear fire wall is well insulated but heat just enters from everywhere else so it doesn't matter. The large windshield that acts like a greenhouse can't be overcome. The a/c isn't an easy fix either and the stock appearance will be lost if you put a good compressor on it which is only part of the fix. When the 365 came out, the a/c vents were limited to one round vent in the center of the dash aimed at the hot windshield - at least they kind of tried and could technically say it had a/c. Makes the 512 a/c look amazing. I tell people if you need the a/c on in a boxer you shouldn't be driving it anyway, pick a cooler day, both you and the car will be happier.
Thank you for the better and informed explanation. I believe the stock unit can be made to blow cold? Yes the sanden unit wont look stock, does it work well? As to heat, I was thinking one could discreetly install modern insulation in Centre tunnel and sills, plus a few other spots where no one would see. The windshield is what its, but on cloudy days or am pm that's less of an issue. there is also the possibility of some very discreet high end tint, limited as that would be.. Thoughts?
I live in Alabama and drive my car all summer long. Rarely use the AC other than to exercise it every couple of months. Charge on mine lasts about 5 years - I'm good with that. I find that opening the floor vents and letting air circulate helps but obviously you have to be moving. I like putting my fingertips on the front windshield while driving and feel the hot air blow over the car. Never noticed the hot air coming in behind me. You don't drive this car to work in a suite. You put on some shorts and a t shirt, put the radar detector on highway, and let er rip.
Nothing that needs fixing on the Boxer. It’s a near 50 year old car and better than its contemporaries.
A newer compressor would help yes and it would hold the charge longer. The evap under the dash I wouldn't bother trying to improve, there's no room. Because I have the condensers made I can make them any length I want. I ran a longer one in the M powered BB and it looks stock, matches the length of the rad. The carb'd cars had a shorter condenser than the rad for some reason. BBi got a longer full length one and better fans that pull rather than push air. Incremental improvements over the model run in many areas but the a/c can't keep up with everything else thats working against it. There's not much room for insulation under the tunnel. They didn't waste much space in the cabin so when you try to improve things anywhere you can run into unexpected problems with how things fit together. It can be a challenge just putting interior back in that has been recovered let alone adding stuffing here and there. You look at it and tell yourself it came out why wont it go back in? Screw holes don't easily line up and can fight you all the way.
Someone ( Bob Norwood ? ) told me upping the HP on a carbed 512 was fairly easy and cheap ( Ferrari cheap is different than Chevy cheap ). IIRC 500 HP was mentioned with cams and pistons. I don't forget the Boxer had close to 400 HP back when the Corvette nudged 200. Originally I wanted a Countach. Right up until I rode in one for half a day.....NEXT !
Cams, pistons, head work, larger chokes and modified exhaust manifolds that address number 6 and 7 cylinders plus an exhaust system. Ferrari didn't leave an easy to find 140 HP on the table from the factory.
Carobu Engineering determined the engine needed more intake for increased hp. S/N 35411 dyno'd at 471 hp and 399 ft-lbs. One piece Tubi exhaust and an aluminum radiator knocked off 75 lbs. Daytona cam profiles were used along with ported heads with matching manifolds. It's a beast. Image Unavailable, Please Login
