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Boxer vs Countach.

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Fan512bbi, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

    Feb 23, 2006
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    what kind of 25th you drove?
    please remember an FI 25th is the fatter of them all and has some 30 hp less than a DD carbs QV
    a US FI 25th anniversary is not exactly the best performing countach
     
  2. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    #302 Newman, Nov 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Look what I just got, Havent read it yet but im sure it will say the lambo is a turd and the boxer is the best car on the planet bar none, lol. :)
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  3. buzzm2005

    buzzm2005 Formula 3

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    Yep. It compares a 365, though, not a 512. The article is depressingly neutral.
     
  4. ferraripete

    ferraripete F1 World Champ

    not too nuetral...the guy say he wants a countach in the closing paragraph.
     
  5. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I do agree the looks are more agressive in the lp400 but thats all it has on the boxer if thats what you want in life. In the real world the boxer is the better car that I would enjoy driving any day on long or short trips.
     
  6. EMILIO

    EMILIO F1 Veteran

    Feb 23, 2006
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    yes...the boxer is the better car even if the LP400 is lighter, faster and handles better (actual values clearly show the boxer supremacy)
     
  7. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    A LP400S tested by Road an Track in 78 could barely make 160mph, the BB tested hit almost 180. Weights are very similar between both cars but a Ct would never survive an extended race or severe track day due to oil starvation and overheating, the Boxer is a proven race engine with a dry sump on the 512s and is superior for the track.


    Looks are subjective but Sheehan summed it up well IMO in his article comparing them and they are both very different
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Lighter and faster does not make it better, the article wasnt biased in that he clearly pointed out what sucked about the lp400 and what made the boxer a better built, better driving car. BUT, the lp400 is his choice for personal reasons not technical reasons as the article so clearly describes.
     
  9. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    Too be fair they are both handmade cars and each is unique, Lambos biggest problem in the 70s was they were always broke, production lines for the CT would be stopped for months due to lack of parts which of course would result in inconsistencys with the cars, in 77 or 78 they only made about 20 CTs due to irregular part deliveries and employees unsure if they would ever be paid, hard times for Lambo then.
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    SARTI!! I cant beleive how fair and objective you are being...wow that vacation sure worked miracles!! (Im proud of you)

    Youre 100% right on the above....youre getting good with Lamborghini history too!

    And I know Newman makes some great points about the technical & practical superiority of the Boxer.
    BUT, life is not that simple or cut-and-dried, and passion and emotion are part of the equation. With that in mind, at the end of the day as the writer concludes: I WANT THE COUNTACH! (Oh wait, I owned that very car in the article....but wait, I still have another. Phew!)

    Joe
    www.lamborghiniregistry.com
     
  11. vmanaktala

    vmanaktala Karting

    Dec 28, 2003
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    Sarti,

    I would like to see a scan of your copy of R&T mine does not show those #

    Everything else you said in the above post is just your thoughts. (You are a stupid ass, but those are just my thoughts, one is as valid as the other)

    BTW as I have asked before how much track time do you have on your Boxer?
    And what experience do you have in a Countach? Oh wait I remember the answer lol

    I have taken my Countach on the track and will pay to transport your car and yourself to a track in arizona to run and prove what you posted above, if you agree to STFU if you loose.

    I am serious, what do you say?

    I will provide a Greyhound ticket for you because I want you to travel in the style you are used to.
     
  12. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    A stock Boxer cannot hit 180.

    .

    On the street, oil starvation is not a problem for a well driven Countach. You can easily modify the cars lubrication system for track preperation, if that is what you are after.

    Which Boxer has a proven race engine ? Are you talking about production cars, the LM, and or race prepared cars with almost nothing in common with showroom production cars ? An engine mounted on top of the transmission, is not superior for the track.


    Sheehan summed it up well ? Sheehan conveniently "forgot" to mention about the $7,500-12,000 engine out belt service that is required with a Boxer.
     
  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I find it odd that people would try to convince ferrari owners that a lambo is the better route to go especially on a ferrari site. I guess Sarti is saying the flat 12 originated as a race engine which we all know so playing stupid is a waste of time. The lambo to my knowledge never raced and the V12 is just a street engine from the beginning. The fact is the lp400 is harder to work on, less comfortable to drive, less than stellar build quality and it aint a ferrari. The last 4 points are not my opinion, they are facts that I have heard time and time again from many sources. Being a mechanic myself I can tell you just by looking at the lp400 powertrain it looks like a nightmare compared to the boxer. Removing the engine to change a clutch that has a reputation for frying on the regular basis is enough for me to call the car a turd and vow to never own one. They suck to drive in traffic (known fact), my boxer is a treat.
     
  14. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
    2,406


    Bring your car up to Spring Mountain Motor park in Pahrump NV if you want to talk sh 1t, its a local track here and reasonable to use and typically available. Even though I highly doubt your offer is in any way real as most of the LP posters are full of complete BS this issue is not important enough for me to take the time to go to AZ, if its that important to you bring it up here its not that far.

    Concerning your personal comment even though we all know you and Ellen are lovers I didn't stoop to that level in this thread and unlike you I have some class Cowboy.
     
  15. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Ellen, LMAO ! If someone want to pay to ship my boxer and me down to arizona that would be great, I need a break from the cold up here and even if I lost the race I still won in the end, lol.
     
  16. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    I am sure oil starvation is not an issue for the CT on the street just like the 308s but we are talking about hard track racing.

    The Boxer engine is the same design that began with the 512F1 engine in 1964 with bigger displacement, a proven race design.

    The engine mounted above the trans issue doesn't hold water, BBLMs rule the historic race series over Daytonas and other Ferraris, the BBLMs also could out brake the Porsches back in the day, Porsche had a huge advantage with the Turbos back then was all putting out 700hp vs 480hp for the LMs.

    Even though the engine is on top of the transmission in the BB the mass of the unit is not much different than a V12 with all the weight high as well in the heads, granted its not optimal for racing and the trans should have been placed behind the motor.
     
  17. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    Yeah but the offer is complete BS, as if he is going to pay $1300 to ship my car back and forth
     
  18. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Agreed

    - Throw the Lamborghini owners out ! lol


    Even though the roots are a race engine, it may be a good idea to read the Nichols book one more time. DeAngelis mentioned that the car was built specifically as a GT. - This was the same mission as the Countach.


    True

    Incorrect. The V12 was designed by G Bizzarrinni (250 GTO fame). It was designed by him, with the intention to race in F-1. F. Lamborghini, did not want to finance a race team.

    .

    True. - That is both good and bad.

    Removing the clutch, to replace the engine is an unfortunate design flaw. They should have spent more money during the design, to overcome this issue. The clutch does not get fried on a regular basis. It comes down to some people, do not know how to drive a car with a clutch, and cannot help doing burnouts. The Boxer also has an unfortunate design flaw, in that the belts need to be serviced on a regular basis, with the engine usually having to be removed from the car. - It would have been much easier on the regular maintainance, if they kept the chains in lieu of the belts.

    A Countach is difficult to drive in traffic. - Don't drive the car in traffic. A Boxer requires about the same effort, to move the shifter.
     
  19. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I was comparing the stock production cars.

    Again I was comparing the stock cars. If you bring the BBLM into the discussion, that will not compare at all, to the stock production cars. I have no reference, to talk about racing cars.
     
  20. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    The clutch may be one issue with the CT but have the starter motor fail which IMO is not something unexpected since its located in an area it will have a lot of heat soak you'll need to remove the motor to get to it, the Boxers starter takes about 5 minutes to remove on top of the motor, clutch about 6 hours complete R&R, belts are a pain but thats Ferrari since the 70s.


    The rear deck opening makes working on the BB motor easy without fear of body or paint damage, the CT you practically need a ladder to access the motor for maintenance or to change plugs and you are still laying over fragile aluminum rear quarter panels, the CT looks like a pain to service.
     
  21. J.P.Sarti

    J.P.Sarti Guest

    May 23, 2005
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    We are discussing the layout of the motor above the trans, that has not changed with the LMs. The LM is a Boxer with a higher hp motor and a few other mods such as oil coolers and bodywork, the same with the Comp BBs they are still Boxers with some added parts not completely redesigned race cars.
     
  22. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I read it and it explained how the engine was based on the F1 design. The entire car is a compromise but a CT is moreso than the boxer. Sarti's mention of service is correct and an important consideration when buying any car. If you have to put up with so much crap and design errors it takes the fun out of ownership. Ferrari says change the belts as often as they do to line their own pockets and it aint required that often. So I have to remove my engine and gearbox (a 4 hr job to yank it) every 5 years maybe 7 and do nothing to it again for another 5-7.

    Driving in traffic is unavoidable at times and should never be something to be concerned about when going for a drive - I dont have to worry about it, its quite relaxing in the boxer and the clutch doesnt mind a bit. I believe the nicols book says a teenager can hop in a boxer and go for a spin, the CT cant make that claim and it says something about design and refinement/quality, etc...not to mention BB's we raced unlike CT's.
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    ...a bit hasty on the foregone conclusion werent we?

    <<Article concludes: I want the Countach!>>

    Joe
     
  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I DONT want to own ANY car that a teenager (or my mother) can hop in and drive!!! As far as Im concerned thats not appealing for me....in fact I view cars like that as a little BORING. I like a sports car that takes a real MAN to drive, that requires muscle to operate, that thrills you with an AWESOME-sounding V12, that makes you perspire a little for your pleasure (remind you of something else???), and supplies you with the wonderful aroma of hot motor oil. Have we become a breed of soft-round-the-middle sissified men where convinience and comfort and refinement is what is perceived as "good" or "better"? What happened to thrilling adventure and passion that real MEN are supposed to have craved once-upon-a-time?
    Anyway, the Boxer is a GREAT car (yawn), but the visceral Countach just hits the spot on all emotional levels.
    As the writer of the article said: I want the Countach!!

    Joe
    www.lamborghiniregistry.com

    PS - Oh, and my Countach remains cool in standstill traffic on California's 405 (cant say the same for the driver though!) freeway. If its well-tuned and sorted, its just as reliable as any Boxer.

    PPS - All my comments refer to the Countach LP400 Periscopa, the subject of the article, and therefore this thread.
     
  25. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
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    You can also include other PITA maintainance issues with Boxers as well. What is the point ? The main maintainance problems with the Boxer and the Countach, come down to the belts and the clutch. The replacement in parts and labor, for the Boxer belts and Countach clutch, is about the same money.
     

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