boxer market?

This should be fun. I will start with Hagerty values published on their site. The 365 BB, depending upon condition, has a sales range of $380 to $505K. I was surprised to see that the 512 BB and BBI are selling close to one another, a sales range of $169 to $290K also depending upon condition. The level of condition includes four different classification, Fair at the bottom and Concours at the top. The price ranges are comprised of sales from individual to individual, dealers and auctions.

 

sounds about right.....altho i still think they will gain some more this year.

 

I was going to maybe take my BBi to the market tomorrow....just sayin

 

they are totally undervalued when you see what a dino 246 costs

 

To the market for some veggies I assume!

 

a Dino requires far less from it’s owner in terms of commitment or skill to use. It also has 60s curves. It has a far wider audience. To the extent a Dino exists today it’s had 200k+ of restoration somewhere, most bbs have not, this is reflected in the price.

bbs and daytonas are in a zone where the pool of skilled enough to use them owners is thin, that limits the market.

Meanwhile the talking heads dealers and scribes who many base “investment”purchase decision s on are not pushing these two partly because there is no backdrop story. A tr has a backdrop story, iconic 80s Miami vice yada yada.

BBI’s are back to 2014 prices when they shot past 200k. They Crested at just under 400k in 16 and have fallen back to the low 209k range. That’s still above the 90-120k zone they were stuck in for the 90s.

in the next car asset boom they will surely rise again, that could be 10 years off or 1 year off. Cars are also weird because we’re in an instant new car collectible phase again, which means that with some exceptions old cars are in a doldrums, new cars are easy work and fast on “paper”

what will change the boxer cycle is either a movie where it comes across as “something” the star of the show, or better yet Newman developing the boxer further so when one is tested the classic magazine is wow this car is seriously overlooked, Bette than a 288 for a fraction of the price.

what’s needed imo, ac that works, 17 in wheels with modern rubber but not too wide in front so it steers like an early bb Ie lotus like, Newman’s upgraded motor “pistons and cams” so a bbi makes great power up to 7k rom, Newman’s diff carrier and shorter gearing.

a 400hp car with great power from 3-7k rom shorter ratios bell exhaust that weights 3300lbs LoutUs Like steering plenty of grip and ac that works. All Basicaly indistinguishable from a stock car. That’s a machine for which there is no peer and would be the bbim that Ferrari would have made if regulation had not forced the tr on them.

you want a classic 70s Ferrari Le Mans racer for the road, this is it. The new me Ferrari’s are ersatz fi cars for The road.
Don’t sell your bb make it what it should be, something better than a 288. And yet besides wheel size totally stock in appearance.

if you do sell, low 2s sounds like the number, could change next year who knows.

 

I've got the 17" wheels from Group 4 and am pleased. I mounted Pirelli P Zero's and it makes a huge difference. As far as the HP I'm OK with where the car is in stock form. Regarding the AC, when reworked, and using Dura Cool refrigerant, it works pretty darn good considering the gigantic windshield area.

And to add to Boxerman's missive, and what he offers is spot on, the fact the BB and BBi have no computers or Ferrari "electronics or printed circuit boards" is a huge plus. It's a pretty simple machine. On the easy peasy side of making a BB or BBi a little more user friendly, upgraded fuse blocks, a few Hill Engineering upgrades, Evans Cool coolant, ceramic coated and exhaust wrapped headers (protects the CV boots), and better brake pads, all make for a better user experience.

Now, maybe us Boxer owners, we need to start making a case for the model? You know, last Ferrari to have hand formed body panels, extensive use of aluminum for the body, really cool front and rear tilting bonnet and deck lids, Sammy Hagar's video, spline drive wheels with nuts or knock-offs, don't see one all the time. And, when you consider the car weighs about 3400 Lbs (I had mine weighed) and has approximately 340 h.p. (BBi), those were pretty good numbers for 1984.

 

Great! A couple of days ago my grand son (who is 4 years old) wanted to look at the BBi, he said "Pappy, this is a race car".

 

Graet post.
I hope to keep the car long enough to one day show it to my future grandchild. Its been my sons favorite since he was a toddler till now 22.
It is indeed a race car civilized enough(but not too much more) for the road, dynamicaly its feels very similar in its responses to a track car al;ebit with lower street car limits.
As for power, yeah a BBI feels fine, and you can surf along on the Tq between 3500 and 6k, but I drove Newmans koining bb and the way that engine just loved to rev, the way it pulled through the gears(from 4k up) yo a 7h crecendo was revelatory. That was what an older ferrari 12 could and should be, a whole other dimesion. That ability to pull through the revs smoothly is a big part of what sperated 275s daytonas etc from a BBI, the sense of speed and power.

On my car two mods forgot to mnention, a lightweihg caibou flywheel which makes the motor more snappy, and a modern clutch which reduces forces and increases takeup acuracy a lot.

There is much to do with these cars that keep them visualy concors stock in every way, but greatly enhances their ability and river enjoyment.
Nick masons BBLM lapped goodwood faster than his f40 same day same driver. We all have the same chasis and suspension as a BBLM, the lm has some aero, altille less weight but significantly 400-450hp shorter gearing and more grip than a trx. You can get a box stock looking BBI close to BBLM performance. 400hp injected motor, shorter rear ratio, modern rubber.

Compared to a BB the modern ferrari is like comparing flying a p51 mustand to a roller coaster..

 

is this really your thinking? I not find it easy to work on newer cars and I work on all kind of cars, not only F

I have on mine 15 ", 9 " in the front with 225/50-15 and 11 " in the back with 345/35-15 and I have a very good handling with this

only weak point I must say is the AC, but a 246 not even have one ( as I know? )

 

By easy work, I mean easy to live with and drive. For most drivers today a new ferrari is no more dificult than a kia, that makes them easy to sell to those with the money but not much else, thats what I mean when i say modern ferraris are easy work. A BBI one must know how to actualy drive, and to go fast be comited , its a whole other ball game compared to modern which is more of a carnival ride..


I hate to think what it will take to keep a modern ferrari runnign 30 years from now, or if that will even be possible.

BBs in my experience are strong and simple(except rear diff carrier), they were built by hand and are easy to keep with good hands. As with all car's, keepign up on maintanace is key.
Im interested to hear your view on cambelts. Seems modern materials should last much longer, and many belts sem to snap due to bad tensioner bearings, which most dotn refurbish at EO time, one can hear these rumble as they go bad..


I agree 225 up front, I even drove one with 215 up front which was great. The BBI had 240 up front and it makes the steerign un fortunately heavy and dull untill high speed. Wider at the rear is betetr, cause thats where the trouble will come from, I have 275 rears and it works out great, good to have some good toe in at the rear too. The biggest problem with the handling and modern tires are the seats dont hold you in place well enough.
We dot have derestricted autobhans here, so the BB is never going slower than the guys in the moderns, still i woudl live a 400hp motor that can pull strongly to 7k rom, it would add more dimension to the car. I drove Newmand koning, between the mtor and the narrower front tires it was a different machine, in a very good way.

AC I think one shoudl be able to do the conversion the 308 guys do with a modern compressor. Mostly though i just use the car when the weather and traffic is good for it. Im getting spolied lazy by the Alfa Gulia which makes easy work, lol.

 

Peter

I use mine sparingly too. Between the elise for backroads, exige v6 for track, e46 m3(used the least) and new Gulia(driven the most) the BBi maybe I use 2-3 tanks per summer season. Still do the oil change every year and coolant every two, but I hear you. When eo comes around and some suspension bushings it seems like spending a lot for something used so little, and then you drive it once on the right day, right roads right moment.

last spring/summer the elise which is my weekend daily was down with an oil cooler leak for 4 months till I got it done. The BBi then got pressed back into regular use as my go to car for a sat or sunday drive to get to the farm store or just run etc 1-3 times per day. It got dusty and just driven and used as a car should week after week, sitting the the garage ready to go, bonded with it because I was using it and really enjoyed it. I also found it ran way better on 100 octane race gas, these cars really dont love alcohol fuel, the throttle is so much more direct and crisper with the right stuff.

this year we pulled it out in april did a big service including tranny oil etc, had a few great drives in the chilly pre spring air, and then life intervened, its sitting up on the 4 post lift covered, and with the summer heat wont get back to it untill fall, which makes me wonder whether for the same $ wouldnt a hurricane evo or Gt3 be more fun more of the time, maybe but there is always that one special drive where it comes together in a way no other car can, so Id regret having sold the BB somewhere along the way, or maybe not, hard to say its quandry.

meanwhile the Gulia is just so darn good steering and easy to acess, just push the start button, Im rethinking moderns conceptualy. As the MC 20 had the same steering and chassis designer maybe theres a modern that can make magic. Moderns though seem like disposable products, bbs are art, still woudnt say no to a pista or f8 though, lol I'm going round in circles. I just wonder if one got rid of the whole fleet simplified life and had only 1 or 2 new fun car what would or could it be. Simpler still, stick with one woman and have multiple cars.

To me its about covering the important bases with different vehicles, one really cant use them all a lot so something always sits, then you pull it out again and its like wow I own this.

If you have something else fun to play with, keep the boxer even if you dont use it now.

 

One other factor to consider on the market side of things is that there is a movement in the market for well, shall I term it the more seasoned driver, i.e. old farts, is away from the flappy paddles and back to the traditional open gate. For me the whole Ferrari ownership and driving experience is treated as an event!
I've driven many over the years and every one has something to offer the driver. Now owners are looking at the option to change their 550/575/ 456 back to an open gate manual so as they can feel like they are the driver and not being part of a video game or driving an four wheeled appliance.( someone else's words).
The carb cars certainly fill the cabin with all the right "notes" Dino's included. But the 512BB carb cars certainly put on a symphony worthy of Carnegie Hall when under full steam.
There are plenty of modern cars that will do everything better than an older Ferrari.
BUT, you put and much younger boy racer in the passenger seat and set sail on a nice piece of road, and watch the smile appear. I did this with the friends son and when we got home he sat for a minute and just said to me - Now I understand!
Long term I think people will always want that experience.

 

These cars and all others within 20 years will be worthless. Enjoy them now as they will be pretty much illegal to drive.

 

Unlss you have invented practical hydirgen fusion power, and theres money to build a new grid,
in 20 years theyll still be legal and there will be plenty of gas stations, and yes lots of electric cars too but not as many as polititards imagine.
..

 

I must add. The horse and buggy will never be replaced, and it is impossible for a heavier then air object to fly. We will never walk on the moon.. and if we exceeded 30 mph our heads will cave in..

 

It is not as if the owners of high end, blue chip vintage cars lack resources, or access to the political process. There will always be regulatory loopholes to accommodate them. To suggest otherwise is horse and buggy talk (which can still be driven on the road in many places).

 

Sure they will always be around.. and even driven. But the demand will drop and so will the prices.

 

Didnt say never, just the 20 year timeline to Ice being illegal, no gas stations and no new ice is questionable.

As predictions are hard to make ill take some wild guesses.
The move to electric fleets will hit practical reality roadblocks,. In france between 99% nuclear power generation and a big soicialist state to build infrastructure it can happen in 20 years, in big countries like the USA where many people live ruraly and use things like trucks to tow and tractors on farms, where power genration is already an issue and where the grid is old, 20 years seems ambitious. I'll also add that basket case states like california already are out of electricty, and if their train project is an example its going to take them 40 years to build the charging infrastructure.

China BTW while pushing elctrics has no plan to be all electric in 20 years, they're smart.

Then lest add to all this the issue of minerals for batteries and electric motors which will literaly rip the earth asunder for a generation that thinks mining is bad, assuming all the minerals can be found. .

Yes were headed towards electrics but the transition will be slower and more nuanced. Along the way we'll discover that transport is only 30% of petrolium consumption, methane etc, so going 100% electric is not the answer and at huge cost+disruptive. There are also synthetic fuels coming along which are carbon neutrral in that theyre made by pulling athospheric c02 so release only what they pulled out, porche is spending a lot on this tech. We'll also discover that ICE is just a better and more apropriate application in a number of circumstances. Lastly the petrolium infrastrucure is huge and cost efficient, nothing needs to get spent to keep some gas stations around..

Politicians can set lofty goals, and even then the fine print says those goals are subject to review.
For sure Mons minivan is going electric/hybrid in 10 years or less, it should. But Ill bet there will be ample gas stations 20 years from now, and even 40 years from now youll be able to buy fuel that goes in an Ice car. If the fleet goes down to 5 or 10% ice the emissions simply are not going to bother anyone enough to get rid of it.
The people most bothered by ICE are urban elitists, getting rid of diesel buses trucks taxis delivery vehicles etc will already make a huge change for them, that would have been the easiest place to start with electrics, but hey its costs $ and requires planning, something unionized pork cities don't do.

At some point a BBI will be an anachronism like a steam train, in some ways it already is being astick shift no driver aids and you have to turn a key and use a tyre guage. There will probably be legions of enthusiasts who maintain and drive them. If you think younger genrations wont be interested, well we already see those genrations playing music on vinyl, and wearign mechanical watches. We see entire generations who were not even toddlers in the 60s building 1000's of Shelby cobra repilcas cause thyere just cool. Lastly I see that 20% of boys today are absolute car fanatics, they feel it coming to an end and want in. The degree of motivation is huge. Some of us were just born gearheads, and thats going to be enough million people to make the "cool" old cars a market. Its also a function of promotion, the brit classic car mags do that great, old cars are a whole cottage industry there, along with component cars. They have poltical clout and have carved out aniche for themselvs where lead replacement fuel si even avialable.

There are more warbirds flying today than there were 20 years ago, and some are new builds.

Classic ice cars are a market, theyre motive art and they appeal to somethign viceral, + theres money in them thar hills.
V8 dodge challengers have over a50% mnaual takeup rate and that car outsells the other two, its underpinnings are going on 25 years(old e class) and its conceptualy in the 60's. Where theres a market.there will be products and workarounds.

 

The poseurs buying the new latest will dissapear into the hey my electric is faster. And yes just like model T values peaked with that genration prices may decline. But old bugattis never went down, nor did GTO's although 57 chevies have since the "collectors" who grew up with them started dying off after the 80s.
I could be wrong, but methinks the handbuilt, designed without legislative compromise ferraris will have demand just as classic bugatis do today. That means everyhting from 1948 through to the 308s boxers and arguably 355s and 550s. Ie pre paddle.

As an interesting aside were seeing 308 electric conversions, cause the car just looks so cool.

But maybe youre right, if Ice is banned in Europe half the market dissapears for boxers, we need to get the Chinese into classic then..
Horses didnt dissapear though, workhorses did, throughbreds became more expensive and had ranches to stable them in.

Hard to say, lest see where it goes, its never a straight line, and soem cars will fall on the not worth much, while others move into the art and Im cool with my mchanical watch, vinyl records and scarce ice car that runs, I "think" boxers will make the grade. I also think we'll see two more classic car booms in the next 20 years..

 

I think there is a version of this thread with the same debate in the vintage section.

If F40s are going to be $100,000 in 10 years and I can still register one as a classic with ASI and drive it here in Italy I will be really quite pleased. Even now, an ASI plate on a 25 year old car means cheap insurance and no emissions testing.

Despite the legal environment, that type of car will always have significant value due to the means of the people that want one.

 

The western world is getting poorer. These costly to maintain hobby cars will only have a market if there is excess wealth in the hands of people who are mechanically inclined. That is going to be a miniscule market. Are wealthy Asians going to take up the slack? They tend to find prestige in new objects, so it is not obvious there will be retro interest there, unless the investment case works like with like art. Like art, maybe the ultra high end continues, but the more mass market cars will go no bid.

I suggest we are at the end of a golden age, so may as well enjoy it before excess wealth gets taxed away.