Boxer Fuse Block Upgrade | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Boxer Fuse Block Upgrade

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by samsaprunoff, Feb 24, 2007.

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  1. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Jun 8, 2004
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day Grahame,

    I can not comment directly, as I have not had the infamous "crackling" noise. However, what I can say is that I have had intermittent electrical failures do to the oxidation (high resistance) between the fuse and the fuse contacts as well as fatiguing of the fuse clips.

    As a test, why don't you remove and clean your fuses (with emery cloth, etc) and see if the crackling diminishes or goes away? This will at least give you an indication if the crackling noise is related to your fuse blocks.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  2. PWehmer

    PWehmer Formula 3

    Oct 15, 2002
    1,733
    Surrounded by Water
    So if we miss the March 1st deadline no fuseblocks will be available after that?

    My car is in getting service. Blocks were both replaced in 2001 but with OEM design. I wouldn't know if this would be needed until later in March.
     
  3. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day PW,

    That is correct. I may have a few extra ( interest count + a few spares), but there are no guarantees. The setup and tooling costs prohibit making small numbers of these blocks. Consequently, once I do this production run, I will not make any more unless there is sufficient demand for them... and even then it will depend upon my work and travel schedules. Please remember I am not doing this as a business, but merely to address the need for a suitable upgraded fuse block for myself and a few others.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  4. wlanast

    wlanast Formula 3
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    Jan 9, 2007
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    Sign me up. We all appreciate your offer!
     
  5. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

    Jun 20, 2003
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    I'm going to chime in here since this discussion involves my blocks too and I feel a bit like I need to defend the "honor" of my product.

    1. I looked into doing a design with blade type fuses and decided against them for two reasons. First, the blade design has less contact area and less positive engagement than AGC fuses which have a large, cylindrical contact area and "snaps" firmly into the holder where it will never work its way free. The smaller contact area of the blade type fuse is more susceptible to oxidation, creating resistance, which is exactly the issue that these cars have on the high current circuits. Second, it's a lot easier to tell if a glass fuse is blown than a blade-type fuse. The only thing that is better about blade type fuses is that they might be easier to pull and replace, although I'm not sure about that. I typically need needle-nosed pliers or a little fuse puller to get them out of my Honda. I'm not a fan. In my opinion, AGC fuses are better in all ways. They put the blade type ones in newer cars because they are smaller and you can squeeze more circuits into a smaller area. I don't need to do that. Of course, with blade fuses you could probably squeeze another circuit for accessories into each block and still have them fit the stock mounting holes. But I doubt the Boxer crowd is going to care about adding some power for a subwoofer!

    2. The plastic covers are on there because in the old external-link fuses, they would actually throw a piece of hot metal off when they blew, and could start a fire in your dash! So they put plastic covers over them to contain the exploding debris. This is not necessary with an encapsulated AGC glass fuse. Yes, the covers have a rudimentary description of what each fuse does on them, but they have only a few words, and are not complete. The owners manual makes a more complete list. I just keep an owners manual in the car. I actually made a small cheat cheet and glued it inside the removable dash piece in front of the fuseblocks.

    Sam, it sounds like you are making a pretty cool product, but make sure your circuit board leads are THICK. I use 12 guage wire on mine to be sure they can handle the current. Some of these circuits have 16 amps, and there are three 16 amp circuits on one of the busses, which means some of the leads on your fuseblock need to be able to take up to 48 amps! That's a LOT of current on a PCB with etched leads, and the reason why the OEM ones melt. They are just not up to the task.

    In sum, while my fuseblocks do not take the covers (which are purely aesthetic and unseen behind the dash), they have proven themselves in over 100 Ferraris as being up to the task of making the electrical circuits work much better for a reasonable price.

    Birdman
     
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    As a mechanic for 20 years (I feel old) I can say that I have not ever had a corrosion problem with a blade fuse even when mounted in an underhood unsealed fuse box. Im sure it happens because nothing is perfect. I agree the glass fuses are good too but I would prefer the blade fuse over the glass ones and retain the fuse block covers. They are not hard to remove unless there are 40 of them packed into a 2" by 2" square like most new vehicles, this is not the case with the boxer and how often would a fuse blow anyway? probably never.
     
  7. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Birdman,

    Thank you for your feedback. In response to your concerns/thoughts:

    There is no need to defend your product. Like I stated, it is an excellent design, but does not meet the requirements that I (and a few others) want in a fuse block.

    Indeed, the blade style fuse has less surface area, but again these fuses are rated up to 40Amps of current, and so this somewhat moot. If there were any issues regarding their use in the automotive industry, they would not be so widely used. In fact, one is hard pressed to find any newer automobile that does not use blade style fuses (hence the reason why they are easy to find). I believe the auto industry went this route for many reasons with fuse cost (cheaper to fabricate Blade style fuses), easily identifable fuse values (color coded), reduced space needed for use, etc. Empirically, I can say that I have never had/heard of
    any issues with blade style fuses in any of the cars I own/had... including all of the people I know as well.


    The AGC does have firm contact with its holder, however, the same can be said for the Blade style fuses. The Blade style receptacles also uses a compression fit against the fuse's contact, which also holds it firmly in its place. I certainly cannot shake blade style fuses from their receptacles...

    I disagree on this. Remember oxidation is exposure of material to oxygen. If the contact area is fitted securely, then oxygen cannot come in contact with the surface...no oxygen, no oxidation, no increased resistance. The reason why the old style oxidized so much, was that the fuse clips became weak over time causing the fuse to become "loose" and thus allowing oxygen to reach the fuse and clip contact points... The result is oxidation and increased resistance, resulting in problems. Again, the highly compressive force on the blade style receptacles minimizes this substantially.

    The main issue with the original fuse blocks was the use of rivets to compress the fuse clip, the quick connect terminal, and the fuse block base together. Each of these materials are different and so they have different rates of expansion/compression with time/temperature/humidity. So, over time the rivets would become loose allowing the contact areas to oxidize and therefore increase resistance. Increased resistance meant higher power dissipation, resulting in more heat and finally melting fuse blocks.

    Indeed the covers are not "necessary" for the car to operate, however, being able to maintain the original OEM look is a matter of preference. I like the OEM look, the (rudimentary) functionality of the covers, and the fact that it makes the whole wiring area look finished (well, maybe not finished, but better :) ).

    No worries here. I have a fair amount of experience designing electrical/electronic devices for extreme conditions (sub-surface, sub-sea, etc). The PCB itself is actually .093" think and has multiple layers of 3 oz copper. Each of the blade circuits can easily handle 40 Amps and the maximum will be determined by the temperature rise of the board. Depending upon the PCB's temperature rise at maximum current, I may use different PCB material and I may add more layers. I have a close relationship with my PCB house and so they will accommodate any unique requirements I my require (they do some very specialty work for the US Navy, IBM, etc). Secondly, I am not using solid wire as interconnections, but actually a solid copper bus bar (more cross sectional surface area, so lower resistance).

    I will have my first batch of PCBs in about two weeks and at that point I can perform my qualification testing. I have access to some pretty interesting test gear that will allow me to test the PCB well beyond its intended use. Once I am done, I will post the results.


    You have an excellent product and I wish you continued success.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  8. Birdman

    Birdman F1 Veteran

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    Hey Sam,
    I can't argue with any of that! Sounds like your fuseblocks are going to be awesome!

    Birdman
     
  9. mlflotus

    mlflotus Rookie

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Please put me on your fuse block list
     
  10. gerritv

    gerritv Formula 3

    Jun 18, 2001
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    On a 308GT4 (Series 1) the covers also keep metallic objects away from the fuses. The fuse blocks are in the glove compartment, they need some protection there :)

    Gerrit
     
  11. Dopplemax

    Dopplemax Formula 3

    Please add me to the list as well, 79 BB.

    DMAX
     
  12. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #37 samsaprunoff, Mar 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good evening everyone,

    As you recall, my updated fuse block design is composed of two pieces where one is a printed circuit board (PCB) (which contains the actual circuitry) and a base (which the PCB is mounted upon). I have received the PCBs late last week and hand assembled one board so that I can do some preliminary electrical, thermal, and mechanical testing upon (pictures are shown below with factory clear covers... please forgive the nasty soldering, as the silver solder does not flow as well as conventional lead/tin... Since the design must be ROHS compliant, the solder, PCBs, and all components must be lead free, etc). I have not ordered the bases, as the PCB test results could impact the base's material and mechanical design. However, I quickly milled a rudimentary base to verify my measurements and milling ease... again, please forgive the base's "roughness", as it was just something I did very quickly on my manual mill.

    My initial tests included a simple resistive load used against a standard car battery. The load selected was approx 0.5 ohms which peaks at 25 Amps of current at a nominal battery voltage of 12 V. Given the power requirements of this test, the power dissipation is peaks at 300 watts. This is only an approximation, as the battery voltage, current, and power will droop as the battery slowly becomes discharged. Later, I will be formally testing the design on a Electronic load that will be independent of voltage, current, and power droop. The electronic load will also let me stress test the design so that I can explore its limits.

    Temperature measurements were taken with a direct contact thermocouple attached to various locations, with a non-contact thermometer as a simple sanity check.

    Firstly, I wanted to determine the original fuse block plastic base's temperature profile. Consequently, I started heating the base using a temperature controlled hot air reflow machine with the thermocouple physically attached to the original fuse block's base. I noticed that these OEM blocks started to become pliable at about 130C/266F and exceptionally soft at approximately 150 C / 302F. I did not go to the extreme of melting the block, as I still need it for mechanical measurements, etc. However, the results show that the damage to my fuse block had to be caused by temps at or above 150C/302F (remember water boils at 100C/212F).

    Secondly, I wanted a frame of comparison for the test results and so I also temperature tested my original (melted) fuse blocks. The results of which were very enlightening... actually shocking if one forgives the pun...

    Preliminary Results:

    Room Temperature:....22C/72F
    Battery Voltage:.........12.10V
    Load:........................approx 0.5 ohms rated to 300 Watts
    Load Time:................2 minutes
    ...(time waited before temperatures taken)
    Circuit:.....................25 Amps
    ...(Max load of Fuse block, one circuit only)
    Current:...................approx 25A
    ... but slowly dropping over time do to battery discharge

    Factory OEM Fuse Block
    - All contacts, clips, and fuses were cleaned

    Location:
    Wire/Clip.....71C/160F
    Rivet...........85C/185F
    Clip/Fuse....105C/221F
    Fuse...........130C/266F
    Clip/Fuse....125C/257F
    Rivet..........107C/225F
    Wire/Clip....92C/198F


    Updated Fuse Block
    - New Clips and Fuses
    Location:

    Wire/Clip.....41C/106F
    Clip/PCB.....45C/113F
    Clip/Fuse....60C/140F
    Fuse...........71C/160F
    Clip/Fuse....66C/151F
    Clip/PCB.....53C/127F
    Wire/Clip....48C/118F



    The Updated Fuse Blocks were tested first with the battery "fresh". The original fuse block was tested approximately 15 minutes after the new block was tested so as to allow for battery recovery time (once I use an electronic load, this variable will be removed).

    There are a few points to consider:
    1. This test is an extreme case of one circuit at maximum permitted fuse current. One may not experience this maximum current at this prolonged state.
    2. Temps may be higher, as multiple high current circuits will increase ambient temperatures...

    Conclusions:

    My new design performed very well and the results recorded were pretty much expected. Since the PCB "hot" areas are not in direct contact with the base, the temperature impact on it will be marginable. However, I will increase the depth of the "cooling" channels under the PCB in order to allow greater air flow do to convectional cooling... greater cooling is not a bad thing here! I still have more testing to do (electronic load, temperature chamber, etc) but so far, all looks pretty good. I will also do a comparison with the AGC (glass) fuses to see how they rate.

    As for my original fuse blocks... I know that original Fuse block is 30 years old and that the oxidation of the components certainly contributed to the excessive temperatures recorded, but Yikes!... The results certainly explain why these fuse blocks melt and/or catch fire... I know that I tend to over analyze things, but I am certainly glad that I investigated this...I can see that the original blocks are a major problem just waiting to happen.

    P.S. I forgot to add that I did not include the "bus bars" (supply side shorting circuit between adjacent fuse circuits) for this initial test.

    Cheers,

    Sam
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  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Very sloppy work Sam, I only wish you had done more testing, shame on you :)
     
  14. JTR

    JTR Formula 3
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    Apr 26, 2005
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    Thanks for the update Sam, and keep up the good work!
    Eagerly awaiting, John

    Check your PM.
     
  15. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Paul,

    My apologies! I would have done more initial testing, but the fumes generated by the factory fuse blocks gave me a headache and made me dizzy :)... well maybe it was the beer? However, I will try harder on the next series of tests!

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  16. GaryReed

    GaryReed F1 Rookie

    Feb 9, 2002
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    Hi Sam,

    I'm interested in getting a set for my "injected" Boxer.

    Will the fuse block for the "fuel pumps" be on a separate block, or will it be incorporated into the left or right side blocks?

    Also- have you determined a price?

    Thanks!

    Gary
     
  17. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Gary,

    I am only working on the large (9 fuse) black and white fuse blocks. I will not be supplying/developing the small 2-fuse block. My motivation for doing this project was to address the fuse block needs for myself and a few friends. I opened it up to the F-chat community, as I wanted to help others that may be in the same boat and to also to help amortize the setup/tooling costs over a greater number of units. I could develop a 2-fuse block, but this would only be done when time permits (darn work always gets in the way of fun :) ) and if there was sufficient interest.

    As for your comment about including the 2-fuses into the black and white blocks, sadly, I cannot do this and maintain the OEM covers... which was a design objective. There is insufficient room on the large blocks to accommodate an additional fuse (no room for traces, mounting holes, etc).

    As for availability, I have based my initial run on all who expressed interest to me or within the thread at beginning of the month. I did plan to build a few more, but these are for testing and assembly fixtures. Consequently, I do not know how many extras I will have until my testing/assembly is complete.

    As for price, I stated earlier that I am trying to meet a $300 USD + shipping price target (includes both a white and black fuse block). I am pretty confident that I can meet this price or perhaps slightly lower.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  18. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    #43 samsaprunoff, Mar 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good day All,

    Testing is proceeding very well with results better than expected. In car testing revealed that the voltage drop across the new blocks to be approximately 1/2 that of my original blocks... which means approx 1/2 as much power is being dissipated... or in other words at least 1/2 as much heat is being dissipated by the actual fuse and connectors. I am awaiting some other test equipment so that I can measure the peak current through the 25A fuses. I want to see what the actual worst case current draw is.

    As for other stuff, I am preparing to get the printed circuit boards automated assembled. Consequently, I would like to take an informal poll to see what type of load connector people would prefer. The design can accommodate one of two styles as shown in the pictures. The first one has the load-side connectors (2 of them) mounted vertically. This approach is superior in terms of the electrical and mechanical connections, however, it leaves minimal room between adjacent connections (i.e. the wire insulators are touching one another). The second approach has a single load-side connector mounted horizontally with a single to dual adapter (not shown) to give the two connections needed for some fuse circuits. This approach is not as good as the first both electrically and mechanically, but does give more space to adjacent connections and looks more OEM.

    So, can you all give me some feedback as to what style you would prefer? It is too much of a hassle (and cost) to mix and match and so I need to decide on one approach. Both approaches will work fine, however, I would like to solicit your views.

    On another note, would those who are interested in the blocks want me to supply them with all the fuses as well? Given that this project is going quite well, I can confidently say that I can include the fuses with the blocks for the original estimate of $300 per set (The fuses would cost me roughly $7 per set -18 fuses- if I purchase in bulk). If the consensus is that everyone wants to purchase their own fuses, then the price of the fuse-block set would be no more than $293 USD total (includes both white and block blocks, but no covers) + shipping.

    Completion status:

    A. The Printed Circuit Boards are done and do not require any changes.

    B. I have received all of the parts for the PCBs and have been co-ordinating with my assembly house to automate the assembly. They will be using a solder fountain to solder all of the components which will result in very high quality solder connections (much nicer and faster than hand assembly). It usually takes them 3-4 weeks to complete the assembly.

    C. I am finally satisfied with the base design and so I can release the mechanicals to the machine shop next week (I have changed the base design several times to accommodate milling issues, etc) They, too, should take 3-4 weeks.

    All in all everything looks good for me to start shipping the blocks near the end of April.

    For all those who contacted me after the March 1 deadline, I should be able to accommodate you, as I will have extras (approx 10).

    Cheers,

    Sam
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  19. Hans

    Hans F1 Veteran

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    Hmmm, tough one.

    I've got a 308GT4, which means that the fuse blocks are partly inside and partly underneath my glove compartment. Read: impossible to reach. So the fumbling factor comes into play. So I vote for whatever option involves the least amount of fumbling (I need to use pliers of some sort to slide the connectors on, as there is no room for fingers there). Horizontal (like OEM) looks like the option with more room, however I am not sure how this would work out with the double connectors.

    My car is out for maintenance, so I cannot give you actual fuse values, I am afraid. No doubt there will be more 308 owners (be they GT4, GTS or GTB). I'll go with their fuse values and change if/where required.

    Thanks!

    Hans
     
  20. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Hi Sam, great work! You should market them and pump out a bunch more now that you have the ground work done.

    My concern is how they fit the boxer application. If they fit your car fine with the closer connectors (but superior in design) then that will be good enough for me. Ill leave the judgement up to you since I dont have one in my hand to try for myself. I might end up cursing you during installation either way, lol.
     
  21. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    I don't want to trip on anyone's toes here...

    but 18 months ago I bought a couple of off the shelf fuse boxes, blade type.. I gave them to an auto electrician to make some silver soldered bridges up to replicate the shared junctions of a Ferrari fuse box..

    and then I fitted them to the car..

    I cannot find my costs easily... but I sold BOTH fuse boxes for AUD$190 total, (US$152), and charged 90 minutes labour to prep, label and fit them....

    The car is a competiton car (308) and has run and won several events since then without any problem at all.

    They come with covers which I simply wrote labels for, and even have a spare in each box... They even fitted almost perfectly to the original mounting holes.. I think I drilled one new hole or something equally insignificant...

    My point is, that these things are really quite easy to make for anyone so inclined...

    Sorry, didn't take a pic.. but I will when I see the car next.

    Having said all that, the convenience of having someone make them up and stock them is great.
     
  22. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    I could have bought birdmans blocks as well but the factory covers dont fit and they take glass fuses. The ones you mention also dont take the factory covers which is important to me plus I think Sam's blocks will be good enough for the space shuttle.
     
  23. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Phil,

    No worries about the toes! Indeed, one can mock up and create a block to work from the abundant number of available over the shelf fuse blocks. In fact, I could have done that myself, but I wanted a fuse block that:

    a. looked OEM (i.e. shape and color -Black/White)
    b. maintained the use of the factory fuse block covers
    c. Use modern Blade fuses.

    Sadly the off the shelf solutions did not address (a) or (b) and so the only approach was to design up a set accordingly.

    Can someone make something to work cheaper? Absolutely, but this is a balance between one's time and available resources (soldering tools, drill presses, etc). Birdman's fuse blocks are a perfect example of a less expensive solution that works very well. Sadly, the issues with them are the non OEM look, that they do not maintain the factory covers, and they do not use Blade fuses.

    Is it possible to make the design I present cheaper? Absolutely, but this depends upon volume and where the items are being assembled (China, India, etc). If the volumes were significantly higher then one could amortize the cost of the components (use an injection mold to reduce the base cost, as opposed to it being CNC'd) and assembly. Sadly, the volumes are not there and so it is difficult to recover these high non recurring engineering (NRE) costs over the volumes presented. That being said, I am pretty proud of the fact that one can still manufacture a low volume improved Ferrari component for $$$ that is much(, much) cheaper than Ferrari themselves are unwilling to do.

    On a secondary note, I have spent a fair amount of time investigating the costs to have the bases CNC'd in China. Surprisingly given the low volume nature of the product, it is actually significantly cheaper to CNC the bases here (Canada /US) than in China. Perhaps in large volumes things would be different, but if volumes of 100 or so, you can't beat the prices here. As for the printed circuit boards (PCBs) made in China... well, I have a fair amount of experience with oversea boards and I can say that the quality is poor and unreliable. Granted this design is not overly complex, but but you get what you pay for. My PCB house is the best (this is my opinion in 17+ years designing/ordering PCBs) and it shows on the boards.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  24. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
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    Good day Paul,

    Thanks for the vote of confidence! Perhaps they are not ready for the "coldness" of Space, but just Western Canada (next week they are predicting lows of -17C / 1F... for April!... I really need to move from here... brrr)

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  25. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Just yesterday I sat on the front step in the sunshine with just a short sleeve shirt, sorry about your luck. :)

    P.
     

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