Hi, i've already used the search functionality, but couldn't find any answers to my question - were the so called boxer-engines used in Ferrari race cars like the 312Bs real boxer engines or just 180 degrees V12-engines as used in the road cars BB or TR? Up to now i couldn't find any pictures of a 312B (or similar) crankshaft, which would answer my question. Does somebody in here have some more, conclusive informations on this, like technical drawings? I've always wondered, why the BB is called Boxer - was it marketing (if so, why?) or just plain stupidity by some Ferrari engineers?
None of Ferrari's "boxer" engines (road or race) are true boxer engines, they're horizontally opposed flat twevles or if you prefer horizontally opposed 180 degree v12's. True boxer engines are like those fitted to the old Chieftan Tank. These are flat engines that have two crank shafts, one at each side of the engine block and the pistons meet in the middle of the block, like two boxers touching gloves, hence the boxer name. Excuse the very poor diagrams but the crankshaft/piston arrangement are: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ferrari (and Porsche,Subaru) "boxer" engines: [--O--] A single centre crank shaft with pistons moving away from each other . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- True boxer engines: O--] [--O Two crankshafts mounted at the sides of the block with pistons meeting in the middle --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia disagrees with the above definition: ""Boxers" can be subdivided, since true boxers have each crankpin controlling only one piston/cylinder, and 180° engines share crankpins. The boxer engine (the true horizontally opposed engine) has corresponding pistons reaching top dead center (TDC) simultaneously. The 180° V engine has corresponding pistons sharing a crank pin on the crankshaft and reaching top dead center half a crankshaft revolution apart. They may use regular connecting rods side by side, or use a master/slave system, or a fork-and-blade system. Flat engines with more than eight cylinders are most commonly V engines. Boxer engines must not be confused with opposed piston engines, which are based on a quite different concept using two crankshafts. These can be used in vehicles such as tanks."
It would appear that although there are others who have been taught the definition of a true boxer to be the same as I stated in My previous post, we are in the minority, so I will bow to the accepted theory that horizontally opposed 180 degree flat engines are indeed true boxer engines and offer My appologies for any misleading information. I would correct the man who taught Me this apparent mis-information whilst at college but he died about 10 years ago (It made perfect sense to Me when he taught Me!. I wonder how many more of us are out there?). So in light of this new information that has come to My attention, would the jury please disregard My previous statement. Again, My appologies!
According the Wilipedia definition above Ferrari Boxer engines are not actually "true boxer" engines because opposing cylinders do share a crank pin. They are flat, horizontally opposed 12 cylinders, or a 180* V12. But with only half the number of crank throws as pistons, not a "boxer." Not surprisingly, there are already a few old threads about this on F-Chat.
The entire family of engines derived from the Ferrari 3 liter F1 (312, 365, then 512) are truly 180 degree v12s as you note... BUT they are Boxer engines because Enzo SAID SO..... So tell wikipedia to 'go pound sand'! Image Unavailable, Please Login
I got your back Phill, both powerplants have been accepted as "Boxers" in the current venacular, but your example would also be correct..... Where's my picture of George Forman???? Image Unavailable, Please Login
Cavallino once published beautiful blueprints of the TR engine, not sure what issue thugh. They were suitable for framing!! LOL!
You need to buy Nathan's books on this subject. Don't ask how I know this to be true. You can find it at the Ferrari Market Letter. Dale
I always thought that Porsche flat sixes were opposed piston boxers - they have seven main bearings and hence six individual crank throws - unlike a Ferrari boxer which has shared crank pins. At least the air-cooled ones. And, most likely the 917 engine as well, since this was really internally 2 flat sixes joined in the middle. For what it is worth, the old Chevrolet Corvair was a shared crank pin engine with four main bearings. For what it is further worth, I think I still have a picture of an ancient prewar racing car called the Buffum which had a flat 8 engine mounted low in the chassis for a low center of gravity. Pre WW1, I mean.
According to "The Design and Tuning of Competition Engines" Smith and Werner, 1977 pp 150: It is the horizontally opposed twin with a two throw crankshaft--popularly known as the flat-twin, pancake, or Boxer. In this case, since both crank throws and cylinders are at 180 degrees, the pistons are always moving towards or away from each other and are in complete primary balance. However, because the throws are offset in plan, the engine will tend to rock in the tilting sense. Earlier is indicated that the Prosche, WV, and Subaru engines are of this type. However, on page 174 it implies that the Ferrari 312 engine was a true boxer. I don't know if this is the case or not. In any event, by the supplied definition, a flat engine is a boxer if there are the same number of throws as pistons, and not if there are only 1/2 as many throws as pistons.
I rode in it a few times at a local meet. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Even if the factory lend it the Boxer name, it has a V-12 engine, with the banks angled at 180 degrees.
Thanks, and to clear up the record just a little more - the 917 Porsche flat 12 was NOT A TRUE BOXER; so I was wrong that this was like two 1970s 911 engines put together. I looked up an old mechanical drawing I have of it and indeed it is like a BB or Testarossa - there are two flat sixes backed up one to the other and they each have 4 main bearings and shared crank rod throws. I guess this was done to shorten this long engine and reduce the weight of the casings. It was 4.5 litres, BTW, and the legend says from 520 to 560 h.p. at around 8500 rpm.
My Dad's 78 Le Mans Boxer. He got it from Chinetti, and used to rent out the Hollywood Sportatorium to run it on the weekends. He sold it to Walt Meddelin (sp?) years later. The rear wing was from the front of a Ferrari 312 T3 Formula 1 car. In this Le Mans pic, it ran with the rubber extended nose cap. The car ran other events with and without it. Luigi told my father that they tested many configurations of the car. He said that it was competetive, until they had to run too much lead. The brakes could not handle the extra weight. My father and Chinetti became close, and the persian rug in his office (seen in many books) was a gift from my father to him. When the car arrived in Miami, it was on solid aluminum disc rollers! We had to push it as it had absolutely zero traction like that. Waiting for the spares and rubber to arrive was torture. That sound of 12 holes unmuffled was amazing. I remember sitting on the battery going around the track when I was 10. Good memmories... Anthony Image Unavailable, Please Login
