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Boxer Buyers Guide

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Newman, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. DonB

    DonB Formula Junior
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2003
    257
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Don Bartz
    Not exhaust gas but hot air. On my '84 BBi the console must not be sealed because with the windows cracked or down, you can feel hot air coming out of the shifter area, and defrost lever bezzels. The airflow around the cabin also sucks in hot radiator air which seems to flow up over the windshield, and into the open windows. Apparently there is a vacuum created in the interior with the windows down, and air is sucked out of the interior somewhere.
    If you smell exhaust gas GET IT FIXED. There are numerous gaskets in the exhaust system on the car (I know, I've replaced them all) and plenty of room for leaks! Don't let this go unattended.
     
  2. 65 f.i.

    65 f.i. Karting

    Feb 10, 2008
    187
    Santa Barbara, Ca.
    Full Name:
    Martin
    Very cool car. Sure has me rethinking the deposit I placed on a newer model.
     
  3. jzihla

    jzihla Karting

    Mar 26, 2010
    107
    Carlsbad and Kauai
    Full Name:
    John Zihla
    Agreed....there is nothing quite like a boxer....(Carb of course!) LOL
     
  4. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    May 27, 2004
    10,872
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    Sean
    Given the recent crazyness at retromobile, and the few boxer sales we have heard about, any idea what a boxer is worth.

    It seem a good BBI is now 175K a BB over 200 and a great 365 might just break 400?
     
  5. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie
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    Oct 26, 2006
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    #280 geno berns, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I own a 1981 5th injected car made. The injected cars started being made in 1981. Another interesting feature it has just one electric power mirror on the driver's side which I have not seen ever. Like a flying single mirror TR...

    Geno

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  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
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    Newman
    Figured its time for an update especially with the increased interest in boxers across the board. This applies to the 512 model unless specified.

    Im going off the top of my head here on some observations so it may seem a little scattered but the content will be just as useful I hope.

    Ive found that 76 and 77 BB512's have little or no differences so far then 78 they started evolving them and 79 again, then 80 then injected in 82 of course. Using a 78 as an example, there are two parallel reinforcement strips on the underside of the front clamshell running from the nose to the rad grill opening. 78 has them, 76 does not and Ill assume 77 doesn't either but not 100% sure. If you look at a 76 and it has the strips its not the original front clamshell.

    The rear clamshell latches changed from the pin style to finger style in 79, a legit 79. Because the titles vary in accuracy some 79's could show the early latches but they are really 78's or at the change over time to the 79 model year.

    To confuse things further, the factory replacement front and rear clamshells have another variation in the latch striker mounting arrangement like they decided to improve it after the fact. They do not match OEM but they are factory, just not correct for a production car and lack some of the front light mounts.

    Ive seen a rear calliper housing bolt variation that holds the halves together as well where the rounded spline heads look like cap screws but with spline drives.

    Brake lines are clear zinc, flat finish with yellow zinc fittings and yellow ends on the flex hoses. The clutch hard line is copper plated.

    The air cleaner housings from 76-78 were fiberglass with silver aluminum lids which applies to the 365. The top is painted and the underside is natural. 79 the base went to steel and the lids went black. Both had the part number tag riveted on but a 3rd version has the part number stamped into the steel housing near the air inlet. Ill guess this was near the end or as a replacement part or both.

    365 has 2 rad fans like a 308, BB512 has 3 then injected was revised again with rear mounted fans, tilted and lowered rad.

    BB512 had a short and long grill depending on market as did the 365. If the grill was short they moved the carello fog lamps forward otherwise they were recessed quite far back behind the full grill.

    76 (and 77?) had the air horns under the right headlight which were not visible and they were a medium blue color, 78 to 81 was behind the grill in candy apple red and the front bumper was relieved to clear the horn bells. 76 bumper will have no alteration for horn clearance. 82 they changed the color to an orange/red from candy apple.

    Front bumper grill opening is larger than the injected car buy about 10mm height-wise. Same in both 365 and BB512 so the grills interchange but the 512 has the lip spoiler. Carb cars have a tow hook behind the spoiler thats bolted to the lower rad support out of sight, looks like a loop. Injected car has a skid plate in place of a hook and a hole near the spoiler to accept a threaded tow hook thats in the jack bag or tool kit (can't recall), you install it when you need it.

    Koni shocks in the rear come with painted upper mounts and sometimes clear zinc upper mounts. I don't see a pattern, rhyme or reason. The OEM replacement shocks come with an additional lip under the upper mount that requires a different keeper to fit the spring retainer. Once installed its pretty hard to see the detail unless you squeeze your head between the wheel and wheel lip (you'll look pretty silly if you do). The latest version of Koni shocks are visibly wrong in appearance and the decals are incorrect.

    Rear springs have red paint marks which I believe is to identify rears vs fronts on the assembly line because they are the same length front and rear but more turns and a higher spring rate on the fronts vs rears. Fronts have no marks at all that Ive seen other than a small oval yellow decal which is also found on the sway bars.

    Steering racks come with a chrome center tube or a satin black center tube, either is correct.

    Suspension forks and hardware are yellow zinc on injected cars. 79 had clear zinc forks (silver), clear zinc bolts and yellow nylock nuts. Somewhere between carb and injected they went all yellow zinc. Whatever the specific car has is what I duplicate.

    Spline hubs in rims have yellow zinc bolts in 81, clear zinc before that, all had yellow zinc nuts.
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
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    Newman
    Some carb'b boxers have a single rear fog light and a switch on the console saying R.Fog. If this is the case it has one single light hanging just to the right of the left tail lights, looks out of place big time. All injected cars have twin rear fog lamps just beside the muffler tips.

    Look for italian gauges vs symbols. 330KPH speedo in 365 and carb'd 512 boxers, 320KPH in injected cars. Some markets had both MPH and KPH on the dial and DOT converted cars had the dual readings.

    Market also determined front signal lamps, clear in italy for example and orange in North America.

    Look for amber tail lights outside and red inboard. The other way around is wrong and either personal choice, an error after a paint job or part of the DOT conversion. Amber is always outboard.

    Hose clamps on the cooling system. ABA on injected cars. These have a blue painted gear housing. Carb's cars have Cheney clamps on the engine and the transition to the body but then serflex up front and on the heater hoses. The carbs have a different clamp for the fuel lines, no manufacturer name but yellow zinc.

    Fuel pumps on carb cars are corona, originally have red lettering on decals that say BCD, most are missing. Bosch V-dub fuel pumps on injected cars. Carb fuel filter can has yellow painted information label, not a decal.

    Control arms are yellow zinc on injected cars, no question, all hardware looks to be yellow zinc as well. Its like ferrari transitioned to just one color in the 80's rather than silver, gold and black. Carb'd cars the jury is still out IMO. Ive seen new ams in barely gold, some full gold, some painted black. The color varied but aim for light light gold to please the judges unless you prefer the bling look of over-powering gold in which case the judges will still be happy even if it isn't right. Ive seen arms that look silver and I know they are original. Judges say no, I say its possible or so little gold was present that a year after purchase the arms were faded to silver.
     
  8. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
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    Newman
    365 boxer headers came with an aluminum sparkle/white coating that peels off over time. BB512 had black painted headers where the finish burned off during the PDI ending up natural. The muffler cans on the 512 have a goldish tint to them. The dealer upgrade on a 512 was to put 365 header on and install a compatible Ansa muffler system called the Ansa sport exhaust system. You will get a deduction at a show for these headers on a 512 but they flow better so put up with the deduction or spend a lot to make it heavier, quieter and slower to gain the 1 or 2 points.

    When looking at injected boxers to determine the model year I look for the steering wheel style, texture pattern on the 4 wheel wells, glued on horse patch on console vs stitched, EQ type, seat backs and additional vacuum diaphragms under intake manifold plenums in 84.

    82 and 83 had the Nardi black wheel, 84 is a Momo. 82 is 5 band EQ and 83 was the transition to a 7 band so they came both ways. 82 had the sewn on horse patch on the cosole, 84 was glued on, 83 may have come both ways.

    84 has stucco look on wheel wells vs undercoat look which Ive only seen on 84 not 83 so far.
     
  9. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    Things to look for when buying:

    Original Sigla windshield with antenna.

    No DOT conversion

    Coach builder sequence numbers on:
    bumpers
    gas tank access panels
    all 4 clamshell hinges
    rear clamshell louvers
    interior trim can have either sequence or chassis numbers
    gas tank door
    headlight housings
    tail light surrounds
    chassis on RR upper frame cross brace
    inside of doors once door panel pocket is removed
    drip rails


    Things that are critical to me are:
    -Correct fog lights up front - hard to get especially carb'd
    -Correct carb fuel pumps
    -Correct windshield - impossible to get with an antenna embedded, replacement has no antennea
    -Correct rims - I don't get worried about date codes but they are on the inside of the spokes
    -no DOT
    -silver hood grill
    -proper speedo - carb'd 330KPH is difficult to find
    -proper steering wheel - Momo silver wheel is expensive and hard to find for carb'd cars. Look for 3 straight spokes on 512 or 365, not the 2 upper spokes that swoop down after leaving the center hub like a 308.
    -injected car steering wheel no biggie to find
    -period correct radio in carb cars
    -proper air cleaner housings on carb cars
    -spinners with raised 3D horse unless its a france market car (would have nuts)
    -correct tires are expensive but not great for performance…but they look right
    -look for "cromodora" on boxer carb'd OEM rims. If its missing they are probably aftermarket, super expensive to replace with OEM IF you can find them
     
  10. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,761
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thank you Paul, just learned a lot from this little essay.
     
  11. chabch

    chabch Formula 3

    Aug 15, 2010
    1,075
    France
    Full Name:
    Christophe
    Amazing info in this thread. I so wish there would be a similar thread for the TR/512/M! Should we start one?
     
  12. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,175
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    Newman
    Yes you should start one. Are there any Testarossa fanatics that spend too much time thinking about them like I do boxers? If so go for it. I do know about testarossas mechanically but not to the same level of detail as boxers when it comes to the nuts, bolts and washers.
     
  13. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
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    #288 Newman, Mar 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    71,356
    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    That area is very exposed, and prone to "butt dents" from glamor shots
     
  15. petearron

    petearron Formula Junior
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    Jul 1, 2009
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    jeff
    #290 petearron, May 8, 2014
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  16. John B

    John B Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2003
    1,532
    NJ
    Great detailed information, Thanks Paul!
    That cleared up some questions I had on my '79 Carbed BB512.

    Air cleaner tops - Black steel, check
    Suspension arms - more silver than gold, check
    Header color - I was thinking of coating them white - Wrong!
     
  17. Frank R. Masiarz

    Nov 10, 2003
    126
    Full Name:
    Frank R. Masiarz
    #292 Frank R. Masiarz, May 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi.......

    Back after years of absence. Check the buyers guide which I posted in 2007 in attachment. Suggestions should still be valid today.

    Frank........23005
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  18. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    63
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    Update on my new Boxer exhaust system from Glenn Lite at Nouvalari USA. The finish and the fit of the Supersport system was superb. I was considering other systems from Tubi and others, but just wasn't satisified w/ the sound or the cost. I live in a semi-rural area, so if you're in a big city you might want just the Sport system considering neighbors and cops. I recently stopped at a gas station with a state trooper near by and he didn't give me any grief...or a ticket! The exhaust note REALLY opens up above 2000 RPMs!!! Posted a video on Youtube. Hope you enjoy...Dr. J

    http://youtu.be/L3qliqibKz74

    Hope I got the link right...or just search Boxer on the tube...
     
  19. John Peterson

    John Peterson Karting

    Nov 17, 2003
    63
    Montpelier, VT
    Full Name:
    John M. Peterson
    OneD likes this.
  20. wlanast

    wlanast Formula 3
    Owner

    Jan 9, 2007
    1,169
    Santa Ana,California
    Full Name:
    William
    #295 wlanast, Mar 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    More than 8 years ago and immediately after purchase, completed engine out service that had never been done on a 23 year old car w/7,900kms, including a proper alignment.

    The tech, who is very good and experienced, reported that certain adjustments pulled the areas already adjusted in green into the red (out of spec) End result was he said he would get it as close as possible. Understand this is on a car with a perfect frame, no accidents.

    Fast forward to this month, now 32 year old car and 22k kms engine out service which included replacing all control arm bushings. Note the cut open bushing; the center has to be close around 30 degrees off center. Multiply that by 16 rears and 8 fronts and you have a geometry nightmare.

    It is not the miles, it is just age on perishable items.

    By the way, what a difference on the road! Can't believe I waited to do this, my enjoyment level and handling confidence just shot through the roof (new shoes always helps too, :) )

    It has been said before and bears repeating, comparing BBs across the spectrum is usually moot as there is such disparity between how they run and handle based on condition.

    There is nothing like a properly sorted BB.
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  21. nickinafrica

    nickinafrica Karting

    Oct 10, 2013
    164
    Spain
    Full Name:
    Nick Petty
    I recently replaced all the rubber bushes on mine (35537) and mine were also completely shot, I got the new bushes from Superformance,getting the old ones out & pressing the new ones in is NOT a five minute job, I cannot comment on the difference in the handling because the car now has all the interior & glass out, New windscreen, new door window sliders, carpets etc, great fun.
     
  22. glabbe

    glabbe Karting

    Jun 18, 2014
    198
    Leonard, Michigan
    Full Name:
    Dr. Gary Labbe
    #297 glabbe, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have a 1976 512 BB (chassis number 20153). It is a radio delete car. The hole in the dash was never cut out for radio. Does anyone know if this was the way 512 BBs came and the dealer or customer had to install the radio or would the radio delete be an option from the factory. I have only seen one other Boxer that did not come with a radio.

    I live in the Detroit area and for the Big Three you ordered a radio delete in your car if you planned on racing it.
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  23. mikael82

    mikael82 Formula Junior
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    Nov 18, 2007
    845
    Finland
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    Radio was dealer added option, most cars had Pioneer radio, but in my understanding; no 512BB came out from factory with radio. All cars had speakers in doors from factory.
     
  24. ttn27

    ttn27 Formula 3
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    Sep 30, 2010
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    So the equalizer would be a dealer installed option also? And what about cars that have the radio but do not have the equalizer (like the one at F40 Motor Sports)?
     
  25. glabbe

    glabbe Karting

    Jun 18, 2014
    198
    Leonard, Michigan
    Full Name:
    Dr. Gary Labbe
    #300 glabbe, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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