Bonhams Gstaad auction & results

+1 This is basic economics not a conspiracy. Its not the first recession at all. Just one that is very painful and ongoing with the likes of Madoff etc making it worse, especially for some at the top this time. No one is being spared.

 

Terra

I'm sure you are right but don't understand why the UK
Tax code I cited states buyer has to pay VAT on hammer
and buyers fees.

Also was the gross 600GBP as Marcel posted?

Taking your 805K number the seller did pretty well
In this market.

Best

 

Hopefully this will drive the greedy investment speculators out of the temple.

 

Thank you Terra!

And welcome to F-Chat...

 

Based on my reading of the quote contained in your earlier post, it would seem that full EU VAT would be due on the hammer price, only if the Lot is marked with a Single Asterisk (*).

If the Lot is marked with a double asterisk (**), then it must mean that the Lot comes from outside the EU, but is eligible for the discounted/reduced 5% EU VAT scheme for rare and significant cars, which is easiest and most cost-effectively done in the UK.

If the Lot is marked with NO asterisks, then no EU VAT is due, etc.

The Sales Price (i.e. before adding any Buyer's Premium-related charges), works out very close to GBP600K

 

x2

 

Ferrari 250 GT Pinin Farina Coupé Prototipo (pre boano/ellena)

CHF362,700 inclusive of Buyer's Premium

"the fourth of approximately nine (expert opinion differs with regard to the exact number) 250GTs completed by Pinin Farina before production was transferred to Boano. The factory build sheet, a copy of which is available for inspection, shows that ‘0435GT’ left the factory in October 1955 and was completed at Pinin Farina early in April 1956. It also shows that ‘0435GT’ received the esperimentale Porsche synchromesh gears, making it certainly one of the very first Ferraris to benefit from this desirable feature"

Shots by Dirk de Jager
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Keeping that in mind why wouldn't the .. apply
in this case 5 percent on hammer plus buyers
fee?

 

In this case I would have to imagine that, given the house's desire to supplement their sales results, particularly with a significantly-priced car, the consignor paid nothing close to the "official" commission rates.

 

Jim,

Where did you find the above? In the back of the Bonhams Gstaad auction catalogue?

The reason I ask is because I don't have the actual, physical catalogue. I was looking at their online catalogue, and did not see the 275 GTB/4 Lot appear with either one asterisk (*) or two asterisks (**).

My understanding of the language contained in your above post is that if there is NO asterisk (*) marked on the Lot description, then NO EU VAT is due on the hammer price (i.e. this is ostensibly because the Lot has "Free Circulation" within the EU as a result of it being a pre-existingly "VAT-paid" item. Remember, unlike typical U.S. sales tax which is usually collected every time a vehicle is transacted on a retail basis, EU VAT stays/remains with a item such as a car, from the time the VAT has been paid in its respective EU member state, etc. ).

 

Hi

As I'm up in thin air skiing the bowls I googled "UK VAT
Tax law for cars bought at auction" and found that, I think
On the second page. It's not from Bonhams but from a legal
Site that answers FAQ. Possibily it's referring to regular cars
not historical cars?

I think as this VAT is very complex, when comparing
Auction results hammer plus fees is best and as Mike
pointed out, maybe perhaps one should forget about the 2MM
RM August and take an average of the other August 4 Cam auction
Sales to determine where we're heading.

I agree with James that Bonhams did a very good job
In a very tough time.

In a few weeks we'll learn some more but I still feel that
The BJ no reserve 5 day event could dampen speculators
for a while at least in car eating robots. That Ford Tri Motor
is pretty cool although I can't see letting it cross without a
Reserve.

Good Luck To Most of us.

Better Days

 

Jim, I have been the beneficiary both on a personal as well as a professional level with auctions, and I have always felt the auction results both good and bad are at BEST misleading for a couple of reasons, some of which I have posted in earlier threads. RM's sale this past August is a perfect example of how even apples to apples comparisons (in this caes 274GTB/4's) does not apply with respect to sales numbers, strickly because no 2 cars are exactly the same! Therefore the results are very misleading. The yellow 4/cam sold for 1.75m+buyers premium and the red 4/cam sold for 1.25m+buyers premium(a 40% differential). The same type of car, but NOT the same quality of car, and not the same price. RM sold the 365GTS/4(ser#17001) I restored for around 1.5m I believe, and Gooding sold theirs for just around 1m. Again same weekend, same type of car, but very different quality and very different results. IMHO auctions tell me that on a given day, a given car sold for a given price. If we see that same yellow 4/cam or an example of EQUAL quality sell for 1.25m in the near future, then I'll know exactly how far we've fallen. I think the market is in more of a stalemate mode more than anything else at the moment with lots of cars at no sale. This tells me sellers who missed the high mark(and they did in most, if not all cases) are not ready yet to discount their cars for the sake of a sale, yet. I suspect a fair amount of cars being offered are as a result of the recent high valuations, and for some it is time to try and take advantage(sorry). I expect to see a period of "market correction" to allow for this, followed by a firming more fluid market. The one difference in todays market that I believe is very much different from 20 years ago(although the world economics are much worse) is that the cars increase in value has been much more gradual and steady over the last 7-8 years not a meteoric rise as before, and the cars have gone to more end user real owners as a result. The guys who have been buying these cars(especially top tier cars) have been buying them to keep them, not flip them for a quick buck. Of course in a rising market some of that becomes part of the equation, but I thinks it's minimal compared to the last cycle. If I am right we will see a short market correction, and if I'm wrong we will see a long and deep one. Afterall the speculators are usually the last ones in and the first ones out, so we'll see how much influence on prices they will have. Best Regards and a Happy New Year! Mike

 

+1...You are correct sir!

 

Best Regards To You Too!

As an aside I've been coming to Aspen for 46 years and this year is really scary. The snow is fantastic but the stores, slopes, restaurants and Art Galleries are empty. There were very good buys, amazing sales which I've never seen before at Christmas. The weakest part of the real estate market interestingly is at 10MM and up. Finding a place to park your Jet is no longer a problem.

 

Jim,

Enjoy your hollidays! Last september I tried to book a flight with my family to south america, but way too expensive. Now full of available seats. A lot of oppertunitys now days....
Take a few beers on me and we will see what is going to happen next few months.

Ciao
Oscar

 

Cheers!!

 

Does that mean that Aspen will allow VIP Boeings to park since they won't be displacing the small Gulfstreams? [The Boeings fall under a wingspan limit that a BBJ with winglets just exceeds]

Jeff

 

Jeff

The Babes handing out mimosas at the base of the lift
wearing those "Fly Me" Aspen Jet Parkas look a bit
anxious if you know what I mean...

 

Jim,
I'm not sure I can envision that. Can you post some pictures? ; )

 

They got some lean and hungry women there who really
Make a mess out of you...

 

How much would it cost to improve the 1.25M car to the quality of the 1.75M car?
Would there be any point in having a 1.75M GTB/4 if you planned to drive it AT ALL? Wouldn't a 500 mile drive turn it into a 1.25M car?

 

You take $1.25M + $500K (buffing and polishing) = $1.75M! Later its $1.75M - 500 miles = $1.25M or $1000/mile reduction in the car's worth.

 

That's the problem with the 100 pt car. The day the restoration is finished it starts deteriorating further and further from the 100 points. In the classic car world it is regarded that the first year post restoration is spent on the trailer and concours lawn. Only after the show season is over can it be used.

Jeff

 

Really strange. A car is a car, you has to use it to have fun with it.

 

To some folks using it doesn't involve driving it. For better or for worse.
Happy New Year all.