Bonhams at Goodwood,Sat 12th Sept. | FerrariChat

Bonhams at Goodwood,Sat 12th Sept.

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by richardson michael, Sep 8, 2015.

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  1. richardson michael

    Aug 17, 2013
    239
    brittany. france
    Full Name:
    michael richardson
    Some pretty heavywieght Ferraris included in this sale. will be interesting to monitor results.
     
  2. JB833

    JB833 Karting

    Jan 3, 2015
    107
    London
    I watched some of it. A lot of cars didn't make the reserves. The Dino was bid to £225,000 and didn't sell.
     
  3. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    This may well go down as the most significant sale in many years......I'm hopeless at the maths but I reckon Bonhams had a 50% No Sale result.....Daytona Spider, 275 GTB alloy, Lusso, Dino, F40 all did not sell......but the truly accurate 250 SWB replica made strong money........ Quality cars, good auction house, their best venue and Malcolm Barber weilding the gavel so there cant be any excuses......... Big changes ahead I think........
     
  4. DaytonaKP

    DaytonaKP Karting

    Sep 6, 2007
    104
    West Sussex
    Full Name:
    KP
    The Silverstone auction at Salon Prive last week appears to have completely slipped under the radar but that saw just as many "Unsold" lots.

    https://www.silverstoneauctions.com/the-salon-prive-sale-2015/view_lots/pn/all
     
  5. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    True.... but with respect to Silverstone auctions they are not of the same calibre as Bonhams and nor were their cars of the same overall quality. I wasnt there but I am told that after an hour most people had left.
    Whilst on this subject, RM had a very poor sale by their standards last Monday. Just my opinion but I would consider Bonhams annual Revival sale at Goodwood to be the most important on the UK auction calendar and thus my attaching so much significance to the very poor results.
     
  6. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
    Full Name:
    Dave
    I won't bother to chime in other than to say interesting...
     
  7. cnpapa24

    cnpapa24 F1 Rookie

    Jan 19, 2014
    3,629
    NOLA
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    Chris
    Interesting. The cars like the 328, 512 BB, Testarossa, Diablo, all seemed to hit strong or expected range numbers. Did anyone inspect the condition of the higher dollar cars and were their estimates / reserves realistic?
     
  8. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    Oct 30, 2006
    1,929
    europe
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    oscar
    Nah, as Bira said it is the end of the season and we had so many auctions and most with good results. If you wanted a F40, Lusso or 275 you had many chances this year. The rather strong GBP does not help either.
    With every weekend another auction and winter comming soon I think people are now thinking of other more important things than cars.


    Ciao Oscar
     
  9. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
    Full Name:
    Paul Baber
    I know the Lusso and SWB replica from before and can confirm both were good cars. I knew the 275 in 2003 when it was a box of bits with many parts missing so not so sure about that one.
     
  10. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    Interesting view but I think you are being optimistic. A good Lusso will always sell if the price is right. In my opinion the reserve was too high, no doubt Mr Evans had seen the UK dealers asking their crazy 1.9 GBP prices.......
     
  11. nis1973

    nis1973 Formula Junior

    Jan 19, 2013
    484
    NYC/CT
    Well, the end of summer sounds unconvincing as a cause for unimpressive results - it clearly wasn't a problem in years past so something must be different this time around. The proliferation of auctions, however, matters and so do exchange rates. The impact of exchange rates has been big - we tend to view values through the lens of our own currency so given the amount of volatility we've had over the last year a euro-based observer may have a completely different perception of the current market than a USD and GBP based person. I experienced it first hand - just bought a car in Europe that to me looked 20-25% cheap to where it would have traded a year ago; to the Italian seller it looked just fine.
     
  12. 275gtb6c

    275gtb6c Formula 3
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    Oct 30, 2006
    1,929
    europe
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    oscar
    Nice! What car? I just bought a car at the RM auction, and that was 10-20 % percent too high :)

    Ciao
    Oscar
     
  13. subirg

    subirg F1 Rookie

    Dec 19, 2003
    4,186
    Cheshire
    Two poor UK auctions does not a global trend make... Having said that, it is starting to feel like the party is over at the top end. The accordion effect seems to be in evidence too with lesser ranking more numerous 'mid tier' models like 328, testarossa, more modern fcar stuff still progressing upwards. Speculators beware.
     
  14. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
    11,880
    +1
     
  15. gbutler

    gbutler Formula Junior

    Jun 9, 2005
    542
    Charlotte, NC
    Full Name:
    Glenn Butler

    I think many of the estimates were very unrealistic. If the 225k GBP bid would have been accepted, the buyer would have paid 388k USD equivalent, not counting any VAT. 225k GBP x 1.54 USD/GBP X 12% buyer premium (I think it was 12% here at this auction. Having just bought a Dino within the last month, there are many GT's for sale here in the US and all but one that I know of are priced below this point. A 250k low estimate would have equated to 431k USD after all fees and FX conversion ---- totally unrealistic in my opinion.
     
  16. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
    11,880
    Excellent point regarding estimates/reserves and expectations. No way of knowing if the 225K bid was real or not.
     
  17. JB833

    JB833 Karting

    Jan 3, 2015
    107
    London
    Here in the Uk Dino Gt's are generally priced at dealers at above £300,000 with GTS models in the high £300s and above. I know of one currently for sale at £550,000! All these cars are RHD. The prices are all over the place. The bid of £225,000 is on the low side here.
     
  18. mdw3

    mdw3 Karting

    Jan 2, 2005
    194
    Los Angeles, CA
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    Michael
    #18 mdw3, Sep 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I would agree that the estimate range for the Lusso would seem to be on the high end of hopeful today. I would simply comment that, even without seeing the car in person, I am not so impressed with its fit and finish, or attention to detail, if you see what I mean.

    Michael
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  19. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,062
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    In recent years the investors....sorry, buyers... wouldn't have noticed if it only had 3 wheels. Sadly I dont think this is what held them back.
     
  20. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy F1 Rookie

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,612
    NZ
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    Timothy Russell
    I totally agree with the comments that Paul Baber & 275gtb6c made earlier in this thread. Most Northern European countries do have seriously cold winters and unlike California and the other temperate states the market for classic cars in those countries does get rather cool (pun intended) thru to the spring (barring the odd special event like Retromobile). And the other commentary was also valid, most of these cars sold at RM and Bonhams (Goodwood, Chantilly & Beaulieu) were not rare and the rare cars were pretty specialised thus limiting their appeal.

    The Scarab's have a fairly limited appeal compared to one of the greats such as a Maserati or Ferrari from the same period and at least one was built many years out of the period. The Aston Ulster was not in the same class as the ex works racer sold at the previous Goodwood sale and the Porsche 908/3 was simply too specialised to be truly desirable. The Ferrari's could have been great cars but none were particularly rare compared to what was on offer at Monterey. Also one should note that Mr. Evans may be famous in the UK but would anybody in the US know nor care? I come from NZ and only know that he bought the Black California at RM and lost 5 million on it and that he will be the next Top Gear host but otherwise his ownership wouldn't make me spend more on a car......

    The cars that are truly rare have sold very well, the ex Keith Richards (now he is famous) Bentley for 680k GBP which is epic. The Maserati Boomerang sold for 3.3 million EURO, the Shelby transporter did well and the barn find Bentley 4.5 litre sold for GBP 700k (some 4 - 5 times estimate). ALL of these are arguably both rare and desirable.......
     
  21. Bradwilliams

    Bradwilliams F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    #21 Bradwilliams, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
    The excuses will continue until it hits rock bottom/despair. Pull up a chair and listen, they're not going anywhere. Take that to the bank. And it will be amusing to hear what they are this time around
     
  22. stradman

    stradman Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
    1,284
    London UK
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    Stradman
    Isn't this standard 1963 fit and finish on a Ferrari?? I think maybe we have been spoiled by the more modern concours adaption of what a Ferrari should look like, no?
     
  23. stradman

    stradman Formula 3

    Jan 8, 2004
    1,284
    London UK
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    Stradman
    I think perhaps we can all agree that the estimates that were posted at both Bonhams and RM were a bit on the high side. And as another poster mentioned there is also the currency issue that may have played a role as well.
    The thing is, the way I read it is that because prices have risen quite a bit in the last couple of years, many people(not all of course) are just trying to cash in on the high prices where they can. That is inevitable and as a result a number of cars will come to auction, and not all will be necessarily good examples.
    As we have seen the market at the moment does not want to buy into these higher prices and therefore there is a relatively high "no sale" proportion. However just because some people are trying to cash in with the high prices, does not equate that these are firesales or that these people desperately need to sell their cars. Sure they tried it on and the car didn't sell but all they will do in the vast majority of the cases is that they will hold on to them until another time. This does not however mean that there is crash on the way. There has not been as far as I know any monumental global catastrophy that has occured that has squeezed people into liquidating their cars. This is where you would see fire sales and prices plummeting.....All these auctions are perhaps doing is showing us where the general market prices are realistically at the moment. Reach your own conclusions as to whether you agree......
     
  24. mdw3

    mdw3 Karting

    Jan 2, 2005
    194
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Michael
    The debate here shouldn't be about the original construction quality of these cars. I can assure you the owner/restorer of this particular car did not request that the rear deck gaps be out by such obvious margins in a bid to instill an "authenticity" to his restoration. It happened through lack of skill or care (or both), plain and simple. And, if I were the one footing the $300K restoration bill for this one, I would have been very disappointed, indeed. This is one of the first things anyone judging the quality of a restoration will look to, so I don't think there is any way to put a positive spin on it.

    Michael
     
  25. Super_Dave

    Super_Dave Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2014
    710
    USA
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    Dave
    No kidding.

    Excuses will be made.

    We will look back at these threads in a year or two and wonder how so many people defended the sky high bubble valuations, even as the market started to recognize, peak, and start to soften.
     

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