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Bombardier Challenger 604 or Cessna Citation X?

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004.

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  1. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    #1 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    From what I can gather, the Challenger 604 has a larger cabin and greater range (7551km/4077nm @ M0.74, 6878km/3714nm @ M0.80 vs 6278km/3390nm @ M0.91), whereas the Citation X is much faster and less expensive (USD $19MM vs $22MM). Both aircraft entered service in 1996, and have “glass” cockpits.

    Bombardier Challenger 604

    Cessna Citation X

    Which would you prefer out of the two aircraft, and why? Both from a passenger's and a pilot's viewpoint.
     
  2. DallasGuy

    DallasGuy Formula Junior

    Oct 29, 2002
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    #2 DallasGuy, Aug 26, 2004
    I have only flown in the 604, but been in many of both models. The X is definitely faster without question. From a pilot's viewpoint (non-pilot here) the X will get you into more airports and much faster. You can get up above weather faster as well.

    From a Passenger's perspective:
    The 604 has a SIGNIFICANTLY larger cabin. You are talking on the order of maybe 2 more passengers comfortably, up to 10 or 12. PLUS there is room to accomodate a flight attendant as well. The Gally is larger and you can actually produce some 4 star meals for the passengers as well. The lav is significantly larger as well depending on cabin configuration. The 604 also has a bit more "ramp presence" also, being a bit larger and taller than a X.

    The X is a bit tight for anyone over about 5'10" to stand straight up in. Usually accomodated 8 people rather comfortably. The galley is not as big, but you are not in the air as long, so you do not have to worry about any cramped feeling for very long. On a cross-country flight, you are looking at a time savings of 30 mins to an hour over a 604, if you really light the fires and get moving.

    I could go on, but thats my $.02
     
  3. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    #3 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    Thanks alot for the information, Chris. Going from the photos I've seen, the 604 definately seems to have much more headroom and spaciousness, as you mentioned. I'd love to hear from some pilots who could tell me the pros and cons of the avionics, handling and operation of the two aircraft.

    I found this photo on Airliners.net, which shows wonderfully the size comparison of alot of modern larger bizjets. Unfortunately the Citation X isn't there but it's still pretty good!

    For a jet of its overall size, it's clear from this picture that the 604 has massive fueselage circumference. Considering the heft of the plane, I'm surprised it does has such a longe range. Put into perspective, the cruise speed isn't too bad either; it's pretty much the same as the Learjet 45.
     
  4. richard_wallace

    richard_wallace Formula 3

    Feb 6, 2004
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    Richard Wallace
    #4 richard_wallace, Aug 26, 2004
    My last company had the Challenger II (which I am not sure if it is bigger than the 604 or just what we called it - it was like a comair jet - looked a lot like your picture) - which we used a lot due to the long distant nature of our travels - including Europe. I think if you are looking for more of a regional (for smaller airports, etc) - the smaller jets would be a better choice...

    I think it depends on what your usage will be...

    Since we had a full time crew - I don't know about which is personally more comfortable/better to pilot - however my feeling was - if my company can afford the jet - we should be able to afford a crew to enjoy the ride :)

    I think the other option would be to look at TimeSharing/fleet approach (if that is even an option or consideration) - that way you can use the what you need approach - depending on what you are looking for - europe trip they get you a bigger plane, regional smaller, more people on one trip - bigger, only one person - they give you a smaller - and they deduct your allowance based on what you need... Not to mention they staff, stock, prep, maintain, etc... and you always have a plane - no need to worry that your plane is down for service... (With our plane there was a month or so per year where we were down due to service/parts needed - which always occured when the exec team needed the darn thing for a europe trip or whatever) Over the past few years the options and pricing (and tax advantages) of getting this type of service are much more flexible and better from an cost standpont - due to the competition out there. Of course if you are looking to fly yourself - this is not an option.

    My 2 cents worth - based on more the consumer side - not from a experienced aviation perspective...
     
  5. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #5 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    My above photo is a bit misleading when it comes to understanding what you were saying about "ramp presence," considering it's dwarfed by Gulfstreams, the BBJ, a 707 and 727. But I know what you mean. ;)

    Below I've posted some pictures of it on the ramp in Martinique next to some more regular-sized general aviation aircraft, where its bulk is clear to see.
     
  6. storminnormin

    storminnormin Formula Junior

    Jul 31, 2002
    572
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    #6 storminnormin, Aug 26, 2004
    Those Martinique airport scenes are from the movie Thomas Crown Affair, right?
     
  7. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #7 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    For comparison, here is the Citation X on the ramp. It definately has a more discreet, low-sitting and sleek presence on the ramp; something similar to that of the Learjets.

    This jet is actually Rubens Barrichello's. In the background you can just make out the tail of Michael Schumacher's Falcon 2000. The photo was taken this year in Spain, and both were in town for the Grand Prix at Barcelona. :)
     
  8. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #8 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    Yup! I was wondering how long it would take someone to figure it out. Not long at all though, Fchat members are too sharp! :D

    The plane used is actually Bombardier's factory Challenger 604 demonstrater aircraft, registration N604CC, painted in pre-2001 colours (the film was released late 1999, and presumably filmed in 1998/early 1999). Naturally Bombardier are mentioned in the credits sequence for lending their aircraft. :)
     
  9. gentry

    gentry Guest

    #9 gentry, Aug 26, 2004
    Is there a reason you dont go for a Gulfstream G4? Used they run around 18M. New G5s run around 22M. And they are (in my experience) quite nice planes.

    For my personal choice, I would buy a used BBJ which would be int he same price range. Headroom and compartment size are key when you are 6'5" and a broad fellow.

    The BBJ costs more to fly though as it is a much larger plane.

    Are you looking to buy? One of my clients is a reseller of used jets/turbo prop planes.
     
  10. DallasGuy

    DallasGuy Formula Junior

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    #10 DallasGuy, Aug 26, 2004
    Yes, you can get a 10-15 year old G4 in that price range, you are going to have mounting maintenance costs that will offset that somewhat.

    There is no way you are going to find a new G5 for $22 mil. Think more along the lines of double that, fully equiped. Same goes for the BBJ, just tack on a few extra million $'s for the bigger interior finish out.

    If you were going new, you are not going to find a GV, but rather the 550 which is its replacement. I have been on 4 GV's, including the factory demonstrator, and they can't be beat in my opinion, except by the 550. It is the most adanced and safest equipment flying.

    Back to the original question:
    Another viable choice in the same price range/size range is the Falcon 2000. They are VERY similar in cabin size/layout to the 604, but in my opinion, have a better cabin "feel" than the Challenger. If you can find a newish 2000EX on the market, you will get even more range on top of everything.
     
  11. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

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    #11 matkat, Aug 26, 2004
    James,your pic in post 3 is at Jet Aviation in Basel and coincidentally I was resposible for 3 of the aircraft pictured,the pic must have been taken in either the summer of 2002 or 2003 as I left there November Past,if my memory serves me right the 707 was reg N1011L(but can"t be totally sure)it was sold to a Miami outfit in May ish last year.Also for a minute I thought you had photographed Schmachers Falcon but on closer inspection it is not though it is regularly serviced there.
    Dave Mc

    James if you are thinking of buying one of these drop me a PM via my website(on my profile)
     
  12. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

    Jul 2, 2003
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    #12 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 26, 2004
    Yep, the Gulfstream G500, G550, BBJ, BBJ2, Airbus Corporate Jetliner, Bombardier Global Express and Global 5000 are all in the largest bizjet catagory. They're huge, and incredibly expensive! USD $40MM +

    When looking at the Dassault Falcon 2000, the only flaw I could find was its limited range, however the introduction of the 2000EX has most definately resolved that with a range of 7041km/3800nm, increased from 5633km/3040nm.

    Yea, the paint scheme of the plane in that photo looks quite similar to Schumacher's, except the Falcon in that photo is a 3 engine 900, whereas Schumacher's Falcon is a 2 engine 2000.

    Here is Schumacher's plane. Notice his signature on the tail, and the custom Ferrari red landing lights. :)
     
  13. gentry

    gentry Guest

    #13 gentry, Aug 27, 2004
    '97 Challenger 604 for 15m
    http://wjs.corporatejetsales.com/CJS/servlet/com.cjs.JetSearch.ACdetails.FullSpecs?airplans=CHAL%20604&serinum=%20%20%205345&FlgR=P

    '92 G IV for 18m
    http://wjs.corporatejetsales.com/CJS/servlet/com.cjs.JetSearch.ACdetails.ACPdetails?FlgR=N&Flag=F&seqnumb=&seqnum=&startIndex=0&Price=0&Login=O&newParm=&stopon=0&chk16=1176%2517&airplans=G-IV&number=18&Submit=%A0%A0%A0Display+Selection

    *Grins* Ill take two
    '98 Global Explorer for ONLY 32m
    http://wjs.corporatejetsales.com/CJS/servlet/com.cjs.JetSearch.ACdetails.ACPdetails?FlgR=N&Flag=F&seqnumb=&seqnum=&startIndex=0&Price=0&Login=O&newParm=&stopon=0&chk0=9004%2501&airplans=GLOBAL+EXP&number=4&Submit=%A0%A0%A0Display+Selection
     
  14. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #14 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 27, 2004
    That Challenger looks good. I saw a few '96/'97 Citation X's for around the USD $11-12MM range. Pretty great value, IMO, considering a new Learjet 45 is around the USD $11MM mark.
     
  15. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #15 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 27, 2004
    Just been having a look at that website; the comparison feature they have is excellent! Makes it so much easier. Thanks for the links, Gentry.
     
  16. matkat

    matkat Formula 3

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    #16 matkat, Aug 27, 2004
    James that is his old one he "Traded up" for the 3 engined version.
    Dave Mc
     
  17. Admiral Thrawn

    Admiral Thrawn F1 Rookie

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    #17 Admiral Thrawn, Aug 27, 2004
    Actually the Falcon 2000 is a relatively new aircraft, delivered to him in 2002. It replaced a Challenger 601, with the serial number VP-CMC. Unless of course he's upgraded again...? If so, what is the model and serial number of the aircraft?

    I suggest you have a look here: http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=VP-CGM&distinct_entry=true

    As you can see from the above link, he was still using the Falcon 2000 in March of this year.
     
  18. DallasGuy

    DallasGuy Formula Junior

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    #18 DallasGuy, Aug 27, 2004

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