Bobs the OIL guy - ok, be honest!

Have you read the postings by AEhaas?They are very interesting.

 

It is my understanding that "Bob" of Bob is the Oil Guy (BITOG) retired long ago. Ali Haas, writing on BITOG, has discussed using 20 weight oil in his Ferrari Enzo. There are many people who disagree with Dr. Haas, but he certainly practices what he preaches.

BITOG, like any other site, has a range of posters from complete ignoramuses to highly qualified and experienced experts in the field. I've identified about a dozen or so of the latter whom I pay attention to.

 

And then there are people like me who feel that oil is oil.

 

Keep in mind that the mfr's oil recommendations have to compensate for drivers who are ambivalent to such things and leave it to the kid at Jiffy Lube.

 

2000 years after Christianization, human being can't do without superstition in their lives; all the hearsay about oil, spark plugs, and filters are testaments to that!

 

Amen to that. And don't forget to add tire kicking to that list

 

They can run 20w in their engines all they want, but I certainly would never run such a weight. Enzo's were recommended 60w Shell by not one Shell engineer, but teams of engineers. Dr Haas is running 20w and more power to him, but if he is really running the engine hard I would recommend highly against it. Two heads is better than one, and several heads is certainly better than one. Even F1 motors run a group III hydrocracked Shell synthetic which of course has different additives for each track but none are hardly anything near as thin as a 20w.

 

0w-20 is probably not appropriate for a 308, but 0w-30 isn't too bad. There are several people running 0w-40 mobil 1, including myself. I like how thin it is at startup, especially in the colder months.

His logic makes sense to me. You want the thinnest oil at startup you can get because it will still be thicker than it is at operational temperature. Take a small tube of 15w-50 or 10w-40 and put it in your freezer(I did this with a range of oil weights), see what it looks like and tell me you think using it in a car in the winter is a good idea.

He is not saying use 0w-20 forever, just for very new and good condition engines. As the engine ages, move to a higher operating temperature weight like Xw-30, or Xw-40. Many "normal" car manuafactures are using 5w-20.

 

Engine component clearances are much tighter on newer vehicles. 0w 20 -5w 20 are common place these days.. Heavy weight oils will not flow properly through the oil galeries and between bearings and journals..
Light oils dissipate heat quicker then heavy weight oils..Cooling the oil properly is the key.. Running heavy oil is not a real solution on or off the track in a high performance engine.

 

A 20wt oil will work just fine in a modern engine (inc. an Enzo) - as has already been said the tolerances are smaller and more precise than 40 years ago, just for example. And, a more traditional weight oil (say 30wt or 10/30 or 10/40) will work just fine too. It's really only in the very extremes of climate that oil weight may have some meaningful relevance to longevity. In most cases and circumstances it's much, much more important to keep your oil CLEAN, and also ensure pressures are appropriate, than obsess over whether 20 wt or 30wt is the "right" weight for your engine.....

 

That's very interesting. Is this a case of what the factory did as a function of economics, or were there other variables at work that lead to the requirement of such loose tolerances? If it was a function of economics, can the independent engine machinists build in tighter tolerances for a better built assembly? Or...do Ferrari blocks 'warp' as they heat up and cool down?

 

Mike,

Any idea what blue-printing a 308 might cost?

mwr

 

I was running 15/50 Mobil 1 in my 87 Mondial. I took it in for an oil change and the shop used 10/40 Mobil 1. They suggested that if oil consumption went up I could change back. I have been much surprised to see oil consumption go down. All I know is that over the last 3000+ miles I've added one quart.

 

Regardless of tighter clearances, any motor which is run hard or intended to run hard has a manufacturer recommendation of usually around 40w oil, while the Enzo has a recommendation of 60w. Porsche GT racing all run 50w synthetic in their motors and the Ferrari 355/360 motors run so incredibly hot when run hard and there is no way I would run anything less than a 40w with them. Chevy runs 50w in their Corvette race motors while 30w is in their road motors. If it's good enough for Ferrari to take recommendations from Shell engineers, it's good enough for me. Until Ferrari changes their collective minds regarding their oil recommendation I surely will not deviate.

 

It's not just a matter of economics. In fact, I would say it's less to do with economics than the quality, and more precisely, the precision, of modern machining tools that makes the difference. 40 years ago machining was done without the benefit of DROs just for example and other digital measuring devices, so getting a tolerance (say, cam/cam bearing or crank/main bearing) machined down to a finer level was considerably harder.

It's kind of like analog v. digital music. Digital music is easily replicable at a very precise level and easily mass marketed (good economics). Not so much with traditional methods in the analog age.

 

John,
I couldn't agree with you more! I believe that this same thought process applies to all of those who feel that there are better service procedures than those written in the WSM, Although common sense must prevail, they (Ferrari) designed and built theses cars and certainly knew a thing or two about what they were doing,,,and why.

 

What people don't realize is that most mfg actually recommend a range of visc grades, based on climate and market. Toyotas REQUIRE 0w-16, right? Maybe in the US, not elsewhere where up to 15w-40 and 20w-50 are right there in the manual. In the US, a single grade recommendation is part of the EPA rules for the MPG test, so people never get a look at these visc/climate charts.

The other factor is how the vehicle is driven. We don't heat the oil like in Europe, where the bias is thick for Autobahn driving, and a warmer climate. In the US, we do short trips, where the oil doesn't even het heated/thinned down. So, thin API 5w-30 is ideal here. How hard do you think Dr. Hass' wife drives her Enzo?

Yet another thing is that 20 weight is usually just a hair thinner than API 5w-30. We all know people using regular 5w-30 Mobil 1 in their Euro cars....without excess wear! So the 20 weight is just a few percent thinner. I guess as far as the factory recommendation goes, their concern is damaged engines; over reved etc under warranty. A thicker recommendation provides more of safety net for them.

I'm pretty sure Helix 5w-40 is the actual Ferrari Spec or maybe Platinum Euro 5w-40 too.

 

For the UK, Shell did use to recommend 5w-40 Helix Ultra for 308's/328's, but now they recommend Helix Ultra 10w-60. I asked them why they changed. They said it's because these engines are now getting old and the thicker grade would be more suitable due to general wear and tear. A bit of a sweeping statement!!

 

Im in a warm / hot climate . I have been using Valvoline 20 / 50 racing mineral oil in my 89 for 25 years and 90,000 or so miles. My Ferrari burns no oil at all. I change it every 2500 to 3000 miles.

G

 

And Manufacturers also have the need to maximize MPG = tends to have Manufacturers specifying the thinnest oil that they think is safe to use. I complete get Dr. Haas' argument that a thinner oil "gets the pressure there more quickly at start-up", but I don't understand why he never discusses that the load capacity of a journal bearing goes down as the oil's viscosity goes down. One real world example of "thin" can be too thin is Ford changing from 5W20 to 5W30 on Ford Coyote Gen 3 engines.

 

The part he never discusses is oil recommendations are based on anticipated use. In an Enzo we can guess what that was. Dr Hass oil choices may very well be based on his weekly trip to the country club for a game of golf. I seriously doubt his experiences would be the same if that every weekend trip was to Road Atlanta for a track weekend.