No need to. Want a more powerful car buy a more powerful car . Or alternatively upgrade every part of the engine with forged items and brakes.
Ferrari turbos are very durable and have NEVER been known for blowing up. The tuners claims are absurd. 60 miles after a DME tune? Yeah right, not a coincidence at all! I would send the repair bill to DME. They destroyed your turbo and potentially damaged your engine. Whatever it costs, they’re on the hook. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Obviously, there are risks when you modify anything. I bought a brand new Trackhawk and had pully, injectors, and a tune done before I was off temp tags. Every car I've had, I've modified in some way, shape, or form. It's just me and what I prefer. I knew from the start this wouldn't be a warranty issue, never even called the dealer. It's part of the game. Simply made the post to let others know if you are going to play the modification game, spend the money and get some turbos. Prior to the tune, I spoke with DME and Fabspeed as well as a couple independent shops. I knew I was going to modify my car and wanted to get everyone's take. The guys at DME were great, answering calls and questions at 9pm at night before I spent a dime with them. That service and their reputation are why I went with them. Heck, the moment we pulled off the road and were trying to figure out if we got lucky and maybe blew a charge pipe or indeed blew a turbo, we made one call. It was answered the first ring and we had our answer. Call in and talk with the guys at Pure too. They deal with turbo failures daily. The fact they stock housings and parts for the 488 should tell you something... We've come to the conclusion my car was previously tracked by the old owner, and I have driven the car in multiple rallies pushing the limit. 12,000 miles on the car and brake pads were toast to give you an idea. Again, its all part of the game.
All we can learn from the fact that they stock turbos for 488's, is that they should be up-front with customers. They should not jffer the tune if they know the risks. According to you, they know there's a real potential for turbo damage when tuning. So why did they offer to tune your car in the first place? Answering calls and being service minded is great, but it has to be teamed with responsibility. The difference between a good shop and a great shop is knowing when to say no. To me it seems like DME was very willing to help out in order to get your money. But it also looks like they had little regard for the risks you took. Luckily your engine survived, but others may not be that lucky. If they stock parts because they know boosted 488's blow turbos, what the hell are they thinking offering a tune on stock turbos in the first place? If the race shop I use acted like that, I wouldn't trust them to get me coffee. Sent from my SM-G930F using FerrariChat.com mobile app
I've had 2 Pista's and 2 488 GTB , three had driver side turbo failure and one 488 Spider where we replaced both sides for oil leaks, in maybe the past 18 months Out of the 100+ 488 variants we have serviced in the same timeframe. Pista - seconds after start up, failure occurred at full boost/load Pista - failed while driving aggressively for several hours, again, under full boost 488 GTB - Wouldn't share details of when it actually failed, but data suggested after reaching operating temperature, and driving aggressively. 488 GTB - Client didn't tell us, but there were signs of aftermarket piggy back ECU installation ( they left the mounting bracket in place but removed the ECU ) 488 Spider - Oil leak found during annual service / inspection process. So, it does happens, still looking for what they have in common, other than they are all the driver side turbo so far. Steve
Agreed. I would never use DME after reading this. One question to OP: Did DME compensate you in any tangible way for the damage their tune caused? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I noticed some tuners offer a warranty etc at additional cost for these things However reading their pds it seems very descretionary
Turbo chargers are matched to the engine output, so that you get the required boost at particular engine load. By so called tuning the engine you could be exceeding the turbo max speed, exceeding the intercooler through put, so the air temp into the engine is higher than its design spec and hence you get overheating of the exhaust valves. Turbo engines use a lot of valve overlap to ensure cooling of the exhaust valves. The old marine engines used to suffer dreadful blower failures as the engine powers increased, the bigger pulses used to shock the rotor and the bearings failed. I have seen 2 turbo failures on marine engines where the bearings failed , the blower burst into flames as the hot gas travelled into the air intake and the filter/ silencer sound proofing ignited. These were only running at 23000 rpm but with a 600 mm dia compressor. Output of 3.7 bar at max power.
Looks like DME has chosen their side and has denied any fault. DME posted on their social media page about this and said that “Ferrari 488 turbo’s fail ALL the time” as the reason for this happening rather than stand behind their tune and/or handle the replacement/repair. They also criticized social media users for posting publicly anything about the DME tuning failure rather than contact them privately. It seems DME is more concerned about protecting their image to even be able to admit fault in just one case where this failure is clearly correlated to their tune. If DME just said “Yeah, we made a mistake and pushed the tuning too far. We are covering the cost of the owners replacement turbo” then there would be no issues and I’d still consider them for future business. Things happen, but when a company doesn’t stand behind their product and then criticizes people for posting on social media about their company’s failures, it demonstrates a lack of integrity, abdicates good business practice and decency, and eliminates consumer confidence in their products and company. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DME I challenge you to come on here and prove to us that 488 turbos fail all the time. Put up or shut up.
Interesting. Between 35k km on the 488, 12k on the Pista Spider and 5k on the Pista with a combined total of that being at least 15k track, noting. Not saying it cannot happen, just saying it's not something that seems to be "all the time". If we consider how many 488's, Pista's and F8's are out there, not to mention the Cali T, Porto, Lusso and SF90, I think it's safe to say that Ferrari turbo failures are rare all things considered.
Another random-three-initial aftermarket tuning company with too much ego and hubris who won’t be around in 5 years. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Never asked them to. **** happens, you move on. As for failure never happens, you haven't been around these cars enough if you say that. SAFE4NOW just stated what he has seen. It sounds like you have may have something against DME. May I ask if you have worked with them in the past? I've got no dog in the fight other than I used them, but still satisfied with the support I got from the guys down there.
That is interesting to me too. Mine is the driver's side as well. Had driven for about a half-hour and then started making a few pulls to get up to speed then braking (bedding in new pads). Mine was about the top of 3 gear. Initially felt like the rev limiter came in early at first before we saw the smoke and noticed no boost building.
Turbochargers live a hard life. I've taken a few apart over the years and usually the failures stem from oil related issues around the shaft due to heat or dirty oil. I suspect people who experience failures probably drive hard and/or for extended periods, then come home and just shut their cars off pretty quickly without a second thought. In my experience, turbos don't like this - even water cooled ones - and it can cause oil coking and heat soak on the turbo shaft and bearings. It's always a good idea to allow the engine some time to cool down and circulate oil in order to extract heat from the turbos and avoid oil coking. Even with water cooling (which Ferrari has), I feel it's still a good idea to give the engine a 3-5 minute cool down period after hard use. The other issue is oil changes. Deposit buildup in oil and very high temperatures usually aren't a good mix. How oil behaves inside the engine vs. how it functions inside a turbo are two different worlds with two very different average temperatures. Also, modern oils have a lot of beneficial elements stripped out of them these day in order to help with emissions and sometimes this can end up being detrimental to certain engine components (although I couldn't say if this is the case with any sort of negative effect on turbos specifically). As far as tuning, I'm not sure what DME is doing. However, you have to be careful that your tuner actually understands the delicate balance between ignition timing vs. air/fuel ratios and isn't inadvertently sacrificing engine longevity while attempting to extracting every possible ounce of power. Personally, if your engine tuner isn't also in the business of building the motors, I wouldn't use them. There are too many fly-by-night "engine tuners" out there now, just tweaking air/fuel maps and boost levels, etc., etc. without really understanding the overall effects it can have on things like cylinder temperatures, exhaust temps, turbo function, etc. Also, most stock turbos tend to be rather small and restrictive. This is why most times when you truly get to modifying a factory turbo engine, one of the first things you do is take the factory turbo off and either throw it away or sell it on eBay and install something which is larger and flows better. Most factories are overly consumed with eliminating turbo lag at all costs, instead of following the "spool up and go" model used in the F40, so they typically err on the side of smaller turbos with no lag instead of larger turbos that allow the motor to breath better. Ray
Agreed on letting the engine cool before shutting off. I am no expert on the matter but talking with Pure. It sounds like the shafts and hot side wheels are dissimilar metals and end up separating at high RPM. I am curious as to what failed on the ones SAFE4NOW has seen.
Here's a thread from a while ago, which is worth reading: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/488-service-turbo-failure-anyone-else.589526/ As mentioned there, warming up the motor and engine oil is just as important as cooling down the turbos and oil. Read any book on turbocharging fundamentals and they always have photos showing the entire exhaust system (and turbo housing) glowing red orange with heat. Even on some of the turbocharged motors I've built for street cars, I've come home at night and popped the hood only to see a dull ruby red glow emanating from the exhaust side. I can only imagine what it must look like under 20-25 PSI boost while going up a hill at WOT. haha. Ray
Some of the big industrial ones fail when the oil leaks past a shaft seal and the oil carbonizes on the shaft, this stops the shaft from floating on its axial thrust movement and the blower vibrates during a load change. Scare the life out of you if you are stood by it
Haha yeah, I can imagine any metal to metal contact at 100,000+ RPM's plus wouldn't be too fun. One time I had an end mill fixture detach at about 8,000 RPM's and I saw my life flash before my eyes lol. Ray
The real big marine ones run at only 7/8000 revs but very big diameter. ( 3.5 ton just in the rotating part if i recall correctly) At low power when ship entering port they have a couple of electric motor driven fans as the turbo does not produce enough. Difference being they are a constant pressure turbo, not a pulse blower like on a car or a smaller diesel. Once the blower gets going the constant pressure blower has more output than a car style pulse blower.
Your take on this is spot on, i have seen blowers being stripped down with carbonised oil on the shafts- shaft finds it difficult to move axially on load change, bearings take a hammering as the blower vibrates on load change.
This is why I always have to buy new cars. So I know nothing has been altered. The Ferrari engineers design the whole system to work together. Sometimes the owners will "flash it back" to make it appear that the car has never been tuned before they trade it in. Speaking to the technicians at McLaren, they can still see that the car was tuned from the computers they use. Then they red flag the car for no warranty in their system. On a side note, I also buy new because I don't want a car that has been maintained by a mom and pop shop because the owner can't afford the price of the car manufacturer's service center either.
