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Blown F430 engine!

Discussion in '360/430' started by Salsero, Oct 23, 2011.

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  1. Salsero

    Salsero Karting

    Oct 6, 2006
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    Rezal
    #1 Salsero, Oct 23, 2011
    I took my F430 for a weekend drive on some winding back roads (mostly 2nd and occasionally 3rd gear turns) w a 700hp RS6 Avant and a 996 C4S. After our lunch stop, there was a slight buzz from the back indicating that perhaps things were not all well. Called my mechanic and he said perhaps the exhaust valve was stuck open - a common problem - just bring it over soon - to be fair to him, it's pretty hard to diagnose anything over the phone.

    We took the highway back and at a highly illegal speed (let's just say Autobahn speeds, with the speedo needle pass the 12 o'clock mark), the buzz became a full blown rattle, in which I pulled over immediately. Car was subsequently towed to the shop.

    Oil was drained last night, and my mechanic confirmed my worse fears. Bits and pieces of aluminum came out with the oil.

    Car is late '06 build. Manual. Registered in the UK in '07 where I bought it a year ago with 9,xxx miles. It was shipped over to Malaysia, and was on the road in Dec last year. It now has 16,xxx miles. Oil change was done 2 months ago - with the correct grade. 2 weeks ago, car went in again to replace gear box oil and had the gear shaft realigned due to a recalcitrant 6th gear.

    In both cases, no anomalies were found during services. Ironically, my Capristo headers just arrived and that was on the to-do-list.

    Although yesterday's drive was a rather spirited one, I would argue it was well within the operating parameters of the car. Oil pressure and temperature was all normal (and I never go above 4k rpm when engine is cold). No warning lights prior to the incident. Rev limiter was working so it wasn't the case of over-revving. Everything is stock.

    Right now, I'm looking at a possible engine swap, assuming we can locate a low mileage used engine since a complete rebuilt might just break the bank.

    I guess it's all academic now, but both me and my mechanic are perplexed as to how it could've happened. Any thoughts on this?

    Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to go after Ferrari on this, the fact that it's been serviced at an independent would probably give them grounds to reject any manufacturing defect claims.
     
  2. SfefVan

    SfefVan Guest

    Nov 28, 2008
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    #2 SfefVan, Oct 23, 2011
    Oh, I'm really sorry to hear that! It is so rare to read a blow engine story.

    From your detailled description, it's difficult to make any assumptions though. What intrigues me a bit is the slight buzz you had during the lunch break. I assume your engine was stopped then. Didn't the noise came from the coolant tank? Very often, after a spirited drive, the pressure is getting so high that you can hear a hiss from the coolant tank. This is a normal noise. Maybe you heard another noise?

    Is your tech going to open the engine to find out the root cause and engine damage? It would be interesting to know what part of the engine got damaged. If it can be proven to be a manufacturing mechanical defect, even maintained by an independant shop, I would still try to claim a new engine from Ferrari.

    Good luck and please keep us updated.
     
  3. Russell996

    Russell996 Formula 3

    Sep 24, 2010
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    #3 Russell996, Oct 23, 2011
    Tragic. Sorry to hear of your problems.

    Stef, interestingly (and worryingly) I have been told by my local F car dealer that under no circumstances will they honour an extended Ferrari engine warranty with Capristo headers fitted (or any others). Part of the warranty extension is a thorough check of everything, and fitment of non standard headers won't pass this test so they won't/can't issue the warranty - further than this, they said even if someone went to the expense of removing headers at an independent, fitting standard headers, getting warranty check done and warranty applied and then back to the independent for the headers to be re-fitted - Ferrari now require the dealer to carry out a forensic check looking for header change evidence when an engine fails and any sign will invalidate warranty.

    Sound correct or BS! I know in the EU certain laws apply for replacement of parts with aftermarket parts and that this doesn't affect warranty as long as the item is like for like, however the headers are different, more power and no pre-cat. What are your thoughts on the story?
     
  4. redduke

    redduke Karting

    Apr 19, 2011
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    #4 redduke, Oct 23, 2011
    Rezal - have I understood this right. You noticed a slight buzzing/mechanical noise from your engine and then "drove at autobahn speeds" to get it checked out?

    Why didn't you limp home without stressing the engine further? Are you familiar with the phrase "mechanical sympathy"?

    Nevertheless I hope there is a happy ending to this story for you.
     
  5. pmotoring

    pmotoring Formula Junior

    May 8, 2009
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    #5 pmotoring, Oct 23, 2011
    I am very sorry to hear that. But i think complete engine is sold at UK wreck yard.
     
  6. DriveAfterDark

    DriveAfterDark F1 Veteran

    Jan 1, 2007
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    #6 DriveAfterDark, Oct 23, 2011
    +1
     
  7. Tio

    Tio Formula Junior

    Mar 26, 2011
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    #7 Tio, Oct 23, 2011
    +1
     
  8. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #8 FerrariDublin, Oct 23, 2011
    Sorry to hear of your misfortune Rezal. Hopefully the damage isn't too severe.
     
  9. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #9 2NA, Oct 23, 2011
    Sorry to hear.

    Your admission of a functioning rev-limiter tells me that you rolled the dice once too often.

    That device is there as a safety, in case you accidentally over-rev. It is never a good idea to push it and bouncing off the limiter has destroyed many engines over the years. Engines break, even Ferraris.

    When you detected a problem you should have at the very least taken it easy until it was properly diagnosed.

    Good Luck.
     
  10. Michael B

    Michael B F1 Rookie
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    #10 Michael B, Oct 23, 2011
    Rezal!

    Unfortunate to hear about the possible engine damage.

    I am sure glad the 993 I sold you had a fantastically strong engine. Get that 430 back together & enjoy.
     
  11. Salsero

    Salsero Karting

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    Rezal
    #11 Salsero, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
    While I guess this isn't really a place to be garnering sympathy, I do question what's the use of a rev limiter if bouncing off it eventually kills the engine anyway?

    I'm not a newbie to Ferrari ownership, nor performance cars. I had a 348. While not exactly hailed as Maranello's proudest moment, other than the occasional niggle, it was a mechanically solid car.

    Prior to that, I had a 993. I remembered pounding Watkins Glen for hours in a day, for 3 straight days in a row, and that car completely held up.

    I've had a string of Alfas (Milano/75, GTV6, 156) and my daily driver currently is a 2000 Fiat Coupe (the Bangle's finest before he got all flame-surfacey!). So, I don't expect German robustness or Japanese reliability (I've also had a 300ZX TT and a ver9 WRX).

    I would like to know that I'm mechanically inclined. I still have a scar on my finger from replacing the cam cover gasket on the 993. And don't even get me started on what a pain replacing the 12 spark plugs on the 993 is.

    But what I cannot except is a car costing as much as the F430 (even used, it's pricey) going about what it was designed for, blowing an engine.

    While perhaps the buzz was not normal, all other indications were well within parameters. Oil temperature. Oil pressure. No warning lights. Etc.

    And after a string of Italian, German, and Japanese cars, I think it would be quite reasonable to expect the minor niggles but a fundamental robustness of the design. I can accept the (still) sticky switches. Even the (still) flawed header design to a lesser extent. But for an engine with 16k miles to spontaneously blow up despite regular maintenance and within normal operating parameters (heck, this wasn't even a track day), that's just flawed manufacturing.

    Being about 50 miles from, I'm not sure how much mechanical sympathy would've helped. I don't think an internal failure can be saved even by shutting the engine down immediately. Even at idle, that's still a thousand rotations per minute to bounce a loose valve or whatever around in the block.

    Anyway, I guess the usual caveat emptor applies.

    If anyone knows of a possible low mileage used F430 engine available (US, UK, HK - wherever), do PM me.

    If anyone knows a possible cause of failure, I'm open to listening.

    But please save the pep talk for another day. I'm just not in the friggin' mood to take it.
     
    Marcoboxer likes this.
  12. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #12 2NA, Oct 23, 2011
    The only way to know for sure is to take it apart and look. It is possible that the damage isn't total and that a good engine guy can make it right again without spending all of your money.

    We all would certainly like to see the failure as a future reference. Post photos if you can.
     
  13. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #13 FerrariDublin, Oct 23, 2011
    Well said Rezal. I feel for you.

    I think you need to get the engine out and start fishing around inside. We can all guess at the possible causes but it's just that - guessing. I'm sure replacement units are available but I wouldn't be particularly inclined towards ordering one before you've determined just what failed and how bad the damage is.

    Eurospares in UK are breaking a low mileage 430 if you wanted to make an enquiry just to get a ball-park figure.....http://www.eurospares.co.uk/breaking2.asp?page=90

    Best of luck and please keep this thread updated with your findings in due course.
     
  14. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

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    #14 hardtop, Oct 23, 2011
    My first thought is to wonder if it still had the original exhaust manifolds which usually fail well before 16K miles?

    Dave
     
  15. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

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    #15 Ingpr, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Im sorry to hear it!
    Here is my guess. From personal experience maybe the oil pump tensioner chain fail. From that all the chain breaks in million pieces traveling all around the engine block.
    That is why your mechanic found metal parts on the oil.
    You probably will find this esenario;
    Again, sorry!
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  16. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #16 2NA, Oct 23, 2011
    Pretty ugly one there!

    It might not be quite that severe, only way to know is open'er up.
     
  17. Ingpr

    Ingpr F1 Rookie

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    #17 Ingpr, Oct 23, 2011
    1+
    It can be safe for sure!
    I bet you can better fix it than buy another engine.
    In my case it was run with oil starvation and that is why you can see the journals so mess up.
    From I read you stop immediately so I don't think the damage is so great.
     
  18. Challenge64

    Challenge64 F1 Veteran
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    #18 Challenge64, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
    I've blown two engines in my day. Once was in a Porsche 993 at Watkins Glen during the Porsche 50-50 back in 1996 or so. The 993 was a brand new street car and the engine blew with in an hour of starting my fun.

    The other engine I blew was in my Ferrari Challenge only 10+ run hours into the 2001 Ferrari Challenge season (and 10+ hours after my between season engine rebuild).

    You have my sympathy..but engines blow. Even Porsches.
     
  19. Kaivball

    Kaivball Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #19 Kaivball, Oct 23, 2011
    Bouncing the engine of the rev
    Limiter does not damage the engine.

    The electric cut off is well before the damage range of the engine.


    Kai


    Is it 2012 yet?
     
    Ray Smith likes this.
  20. PDX_214

    PDX_214 Formula Junior

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    #20 PDX_214, Oct 23, 2011
    I'm gonna go ahead and guess it's a spun bearing, the whine you heard is pretty indicative of low oil pressure. Did you notice the oil temp jump rapidly when you turned the car off?
     
  21. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #21 2NA, Oct 23, 2011
    Those are "famous last words".

    The redline is red for a reason. The closer you get, the shorter the engine's life will be.

    You don't have to take my word for it either, there are plenty of examples out there.
     
  22. FelixB

    FelixB Karting

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    #22 FelixB, Oct 23, 2011
  23. vf430

    vf430 Formula Junior

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    #23 vf430, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
    +2. This is the right information. Ferrari doesn't expect owners to shift at 6000 rpms every time...shorter engine life but not 16k due to redlining.
     
  24. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #24 2NA, Oct 23, 2011
    Good luck with that. It's more likely that what Ferrari expects is for you to buy more of their cars.

    Catastrophic engine failures are pretty rare but they obviously do happen and when you're "haulin' the mail" it's a lot more likely.

    Broken Ferraris are job security for me. It's your money, I have no reason to overstate the problem.
     
  25. RBK

    RBK F1 Rookie

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    #25 RBK, Oct 23, 2011
    For at least two reasons I believe it is worth tearing the motor down and determining cause. Most important is can you save the motor and secondly, for us all to learn something. Good luck.
     
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