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Belt changes - interesting article

Discussion in '348/355' started by Dave rocks, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. emac

    emac Formula Junior
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    Interesting discussion. Not a 355, but my 96 NSX has 23K miles. I replaced the original belt last year. It looked absolutely brand new. I feel very comfortable allowing that car to go another 9-10 years. On the 355, it has been about 3 years since its major. Seeing some of work they did on other stuff, I will do another major pretty soon. At that time I will see what everything looks like when it comes apart, and make certain it is done properly. Only then would I feel comfortable.
     
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  3. tres55

    tres55 Formula 3
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    I'd be okay leaving it for longer than 5 years with periodic visual and tension inspections.
     
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  4. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Nov 19, 2001
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    Let's beat the hell out of this dead horse.

    The previous belt on my 348 went just short of 10 years. I pushed my belt service literally to failure. Two things happened 1) Both the idler and tensioner bearing began to fail. The symptom was the belt squealing. I had replaced both of them during the first service I did on my car to factory parts that came in little expensive yellow boxes. 2) The plastic impeller on the original water pump (23 years old) exploded inside the pimp housing. I have mainly gone on the notion of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", so I left it in.

    Here is what I learned.

    1) Don't use the factory idler and tensioner bearings if you want to push your belt changes past 5 years. I upgraded to Hill Engineering parts.
    2) The cam belts are THOUGH. Even after years of my driving abuse it still looked in pretty good shape. However there was a little bit of belt stretch, which caused timing to move about half a tooth from the cam marks. No biggie because my f119 made 5hp with the "bad timing".
    3) The plastic used for the impeller in the factory water pump degrades over time. Also the stock impellers are not the most efficient design for reducing cavitation at high rpms. I have one of Ferraripilot's water pumps sitting on the shelf waiting for the next engine out major. It has a superior spherical impeller design.
    4) The wear pads for the lower drive pulley and oil pump chain wear out. Both of mine where shot, and have never been changed, like the water pump, since they got installed at the factory. I installed later version "up graded" factory chain guide pads. We'll see how long these hold up.
    5) The internal bearing and bearing in the chain cover, for the lower drive pulley go bad on early f119 engines. Another original part installed at the factory when the engine was originally built. The internal bearing I stalled was an upgraded part. The bearing on the chain cover is a mystery part, so I'm playing zRussian roulette with that one. Although Hill Engineering does have a better bearing available (it wasn't available at the time I did my last service).
    6) The timing cam marks on my f119 are dead nuts spot on for the spec on my car (U.S. with cats). Big props to the Ferrari engineers for that.
    7) The o-ring, sealing the oil pump against the sump pan oil galley port, lost its malleability and was hard as plastic. Again a 23 year old original part from the factory. I replaced it with a Viton o-ring.

    *In a Forest Gump voice, "That's all I have to say about that"
     
  5. Nader

    Nader Formula Junior
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    A victim of a bad service, which as I implied, can be a bigger risk than no service at all.
     
  6. Nader

    Nader Formula Junior
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    Ernie, how many miles did you log in that ten years?
     
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  8. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

    Jul 12, 2016
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    Hello Ernie

    Here is my opinion.


    Here is what I learned.

    1) Don't use the factory idler and tensioner bearings if you want to push your belt changes past 5 years. I upgraded to Hill Engineering parts. Correct I did also.
    2) The cam belts are THOUGH. Even after years of my driving abuse it still looked in pretty good shape. However there was a little bit of belt stretch, which caused timing to move about half a tooth from the cam marks. No biggie because my f119 made 5hp with the "bad timing". Correct. Mine drove perfect and a mark was more than 3/4 off. The stretching off the belt will change the timing (a bit) always.
    3) The plastic used for the impeller in the factory water pump degrades over time. Also the stock impellers are not the most efficient design for reducing cavitation at high rpms. I have one of Ferraripilot's water pumps sitting on the shelf waiting for the next engine out major. It has a superior spherical impeller design.
    4) The wear pads for the lower drive pulley and oil pump chain wear out. Both of mine where shot, and have never been changed, like the water pump, since they got installed at the factory. I installed later version "up graded" factory chain guide pads. We'll see how long these hold up. Correct, but i made myself from PA4.6.
    5) The internal bearing and bearing in the chain cover, for the lower drive pulley go bad on early f119 engines. Another original part installed at the factory when the engine was originally built. The internal bearing I stalled was an upgraded part. The bearing on the chain cover is a mystery part, so I'm playing zRussian roulette with that one. Although Hill Engineering does have a better bearing available (it wasn't available at the time I did my last service). I changed with HILL's.
    6) The timing cam marks on my f119 are dead nuts spot on for the spec on my car (U.S. with cats). Big props to the Ferrari engineers for that. This is correct for the 348 ! I talked to a old Ferrari mechanic who's dad had a Ferrari dealership for 30 year here in Belgium. There was indeed a problem with the camshaft marks on the old 12 cyl (like the 512BB) and 8 cyl ( like the 308) but the cam marks on the 348 and newer are spot on he told me.
    7) The o-ring, sealing the oil pump against the sump pan oil galley port, lost its malleability and was hard as plastic. Again a 23 year old original part from the factory. I replaced it with a Viton o-ring. Correct. I put also a new viton in.Don't use the old one.

    Like most of the time you are correct Ernie. ;)
     
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  9. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    About 30,000+/-
     
  10. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    On the contrary, it demonstrates the poor quality of the factory Ferrari parts. Tensioner bearings that fail after only 30k miles, and plastic water pump impellers that explode is a joke. My 1997 Expedtion has 405,000 miles on it, yes you read that correct, 4 HUNDRED and 5 thousand miles on the odometer at STILL on the original water pump and tentioner bearings for the serpentine belt. Though the tensioners are starting to squeal now and I need to change them. The front wheel bearings on my Expedition went 310,000 miles before they had to be changed. I helped my son-in-law change the clutch in his former Honda. The old throwout bearing was a bit loose, but after 180,000ish mile nothing to complain about. That is an example of good quality from the OEM. Further more if the "quality" of parts coming out of the factory was so "good" why are you in the business of refinishing sticky Ferrari parts? The only quality that supports is BAD quality from OEM.
     
  11. steved033

    steved033 F1 Rookie
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    well, it's a ford. at the time it was built, "quality was job 1"

    I don't know what it is now...

    sjd
     
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  13. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    The failure of the coatings is far from limited to Ferrari parts. See attached.

    Ferrari does not make bearings - bearing manufactures make them. They select and specify them.


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. carnutdallas

    carnutdallas Formula Junior
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    The Ford does not run 160mph plus or Rev to 8500+, so from that perspective I am ok with less than 100k miles out of parts on the F-car.

    Just say’n


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  15. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #37 ernie, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
    Guess you haven't been paying attention to what the new Ford Mustang, the Ford GT, or even the Ford Focus RS are capable of. The Focus RS has a top speed of 165mph. The Mustang Shelby gt350 revs to 8250. The GT has a top speed of 216mph. The new Fords are no joke.
     
  16. carnutdallas

    carnutdallas Formula Junior
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    You win.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Obviously he was responding to your Expedition comment. Haven't seen any Ford GT's or GT350's with 300k+ miles but I suspect they could do it.

    Focus RS I thought was still blowing head gaskets on a daily basis.
     
  18. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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    ernie and Pangea like this.
  19. Cauf61

    Cauf61 Formula Junior

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  20. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Only time will tell.
     
  21. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
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    I have a Rotel Amp and preamp I bought in 1991 that still cranks the Metal !
    Doubt a new system would go that long.
     
  22. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    It still is.

    I'd take a Ford over GM and Chrysler every time.
     
  23. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Our fleet rsults show that fords cost about 40percent less over 5 years vs chev, dodge is only about 20 but there resale after 8 years is dismal
     
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  24. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Just in the process of changing my belts at either 5 or 6 years, cant remember.
    What I did want to share is my other services the belts looked brand new, these ones look significantly older.

    Had to think about it but about 3 years ago a bolt fell out of the transmission engine interface housing and the engine leaked transmission fluid. Not a lot but maybe half a litre over 1 drive until I noticed.

    This also caused a dirtier engine and transmission cases, and belts that looked much older. Probably like a 200,000 mile Toyota.

    So just a reminder if you have ever had a leak it makes a big difference on belt appearance at least.
     
  25. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

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    This post should be kept alive as there is too much paranoia about the belt change intervals.
    Should be added to the "Master Sticky Thread Index".
     
  26. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Not to worry - it will be kept alive without it being a sticky - it's a belt thread :D
     
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  27. taz355

    taz355 F1 Veteran
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    Ha ha good one
     

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