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Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by KennyH, Jan 21, 2004.
Wow! That would certainly raise the bar if they can keep the car light.
Well....it's still kinda' goofy looking, but I guess this is what's considered modern. The 6 cyl is a big mistake. Low cache'. Look at the Jaguar mid engined thing they built, whatever that was called. Big mistake.
I guess the NSX had to be the pick of the litter to always get picked on. I'll show the car some luv even though it lacks some power. Still good in my books.
Complete bashing? That's not how I saw it. In my opinion, the only people who are willing to 'bash' the NSX are not on the same level as other true automotive enthusiasts. I think everyone would agree that the current NSX is past due, but the fact is; the NSX so much more complex then $89k and 300HP. The car is for consumers who thrive on technical research, are obsessed with precision, and appreciate automotive engineering at a level rarely seen. Cheers to the people who comprehend the NSX for what it is -- the reset will simply never understand.
Hehe - I love those NSX/Accord comments. I have both. I can tell you that 99% of the people who say the NSX drives like a fast Accord have never been in an NSX. Come ride with me...you'll be clutching that grab handle...
I have always loved the NSX from its introduction, but not because it was an imitation Ferrari, but because of its styling and Honda engineering. Sure, I'd rather have a 355 and modern F-cars will kill it speedwise, but it's still special. Remember the article FORZA wrote about the NSX's competitor, the 348, was titled "THE UNLOVED FERRARIS."
Incidentally, when the HSC (NSX replacement) pics came out I was a little annoyed because it seems to really copy the Enzo. Honda has always been a pioneer of design and I guess I was expecting something that didn't borrow from another manufacturer's design.
I don't know why people always make fun of the NSX. I've driven a F355 and a NSX. Was the Ferrari more fun to drive? Hell yeah! Did the NSX feel like an Accord? Hell no! The NSX was IMO the perfect car. It was fast, it handled AWESOME, it made neat noises, and was happy in town as it was at full throttle on a country road well in excess of the speed limit - redlined. Despite that, the F355 was more fun because it was more challenging to drive, made better noises, and looks cooler. I would take a F355 over a NSX anyday. But if the F355 was out of reach and I could pick up a NSX with the right deal.....that would sure be tempting. But don't forget either - the NSX was what made Ferrari stand up and take notice that it had to improve and led to cars like the F355, Modena, etc. Like it or hate it, we can all at least thank it for that.
1989 Ferrari introduces the F348 to rave reviews
1991 Acura (ne. Honda) introduces the NSX to rave reviews
The execution of the $80K Honda shows what the Fiat-ization of Ferrari had done with the F348 (interior especially).
In effect, the NSX should be credited in making Ferrari raise the bar as it did with the transition from F348 to F355.
I have total respect for the NSX, even though they were speed bumps on the track (it may have been the drivers).
But the replacement is disappointing from the design sense. And also from the drivetrain. Early reports had it being a hybrid supercar. Now that would have been really cool. I think Honda should have held their ground on that and really knocked the sportscar world for a loop.
An environmentally friendly supercar...what a concept.
Funny that the NSX-R won Performance Car Of The Year on EVO Magazine last year....miles ahead of the 575 Maranello.
Ferraris are great cars (well, most of them), but you can't deny that there are other manufacturers out there with products that fully deserve respect and accolades.
First of all, I personally have never driven an NSX, the Accord comments came from managazine articles and also from Honda themselves. And this personally is the problem with the car.
Honda do not (er, did not?) understand what the mystic is about a sportscar and went out to show everybody that they can make a sportscar that is easy to drive, etc. That was exactly the wrong direction and why I will never look at one.
The post above hits the nail on the head with the statement that the F355 was more challenging to drive. Thus yes the Honda NSX is the way better car, BUT which car makes the driver feel like he is the better driver ... the car that is harder to drive.
That is what I want in a sportscar, I want to get out and feel like I have mastered the machine ... not get out and feel well that car is fast, and does everything so darn well that I do not need to be an above average driver, etc.
Each to their own, but Enzo Ferrari was a clever man and always understood the male weakness for having to feel like they have the ability ... and he built up that image very, very well so that people buy Ferraris, not because they are the best car (lets not revisit that joke) but because they make the driver feel like they are better than other road uses ...
When I used to race club cars, my bad handling over powered little Alfa Sud used to make me feel twice the driver than my later car did, that easily won the championship, because it actually worked properly, etc. Thus it is not about performance/speed it is about how they do it. The Alfa Sud was all over the road and to nail a perfect lap was a huge challenge. My spaceframe next car was better balanced had a far better engine and was 300+ kg's lighter (with 200 hp ) and was heaps faster ... but much, much easier to drive. Which was more fun ... when I look back it was frightening myself in the Alfa Sud.
Thus Honda need to make a car that challenges the driver to step up to the game. When they do that I will be very interested
ps: Yes I do know that a NSX is way faster than an Alfa Sud. This one though had around 180 hp and was a track car ... and still probably was slower than a NSX, but that is not the point. My spaceframe club car would destroy a NSX every day of the week, as it did to all Ferraris and all road Porsches ...
If the next NSX, comes complete with twin turbo motor that is capable of handling power like a Supra motor, with the looks of the concept, for 100,000, i will be the first inline to buy one of these. It can drive like an Accord, have no soul etc, but i will blow your doors off.
Amen 2, absolutely one should always look at the competition and make informed intelligent choices ... otherwise you are just buy the badge!
From the guy who does not track his cars ... I thought racing on the street was for pimply faced virgins. I could not give a fnck if you get to the petrol station or corner store before I do ... now on the track in a real race, er, different story with no excuses.
Honestly why does it matter to you Allan that your cars are so much faster than mine when you only drive on the road ... with mothers with kids in the cars, etc.
Why?, I just don't get it???
Why does it matter that you have to rent time on the track?
Unless you live next door to it, doesn't it gets tiring going out of your way, even a few days a week, day to prove that x or xx seconds faster on a track?
9 times out of 10 (just throwing out a number here), the only place a *majority* of Ferrari owners acquire serious seat time and size up the road going competition is, no surprise, on the streets.
Its a whole different playground, some like it more than others.
You've never raced from a stop light or exceeded the speed limit, never punched it to overtake and actually like it, huh? God forbid being labeled an aggressive driver on the street. Many people happily pose in their Ferrari's, some even driving fast, and some actually tearing up some abandoned canyons, until wealthy Grandpa puts a hurting on you in his SL55 or M3. Just keep thinking that on the track is what matters. I know Grandpa is smiling and so are people like us!
Well let me explain it to you. In Arizona, i was very interested in tracking my cars, but according to the other Rob, Ferrari owners in Az are not interested in doing track events. I asked many times, and there was nothing we could do. So there, i was forced to have to run through mountains of Sedona, flying around and having a blast.
In Maui, there is no racetrack, so again, im forced to go running up the twisty mountain roads by myself, where there is very little traffic.
In Florida, i tracked some of my cars, mostly my Porsche.
SO the only real time i do get to run my cars, is really on the street. I dont race in and out of traffic, but if i do see an open clearing, with no danger of someone turning out in front of me, you better believe im going to hammer it.
So even though i dont track my cars, i look for roads that best replicate a track like situation. I prefer twists and turns, rather than straight lines. Unfortunatley, since they are public roads, i have to go through them at a much slower pace than at a track, as its all too easy to end up in a tree. Gotta make due with what you have.
How would you know? You just said:
OK my 2 cents here:
First it wasn't really NSX bashing, it was more age bashing. ("
incredible handling and amazing grip
") The NSX is a awesome car, especially in the right hands. Has anyone here seen the Japanese "Best Motoring". The can drive the HELL out of the new NSX-R.
Second, a F-car and a NSX are 2 very different cars, with very different purchase reasons. Lets say preowned, for 50k I would never touch a Ferrari. If it has problems the money involved is a lot more than if the NSX has a problem. Plus it is more reliable. The same goes for new purchases. 90k vs. 150k, that is a big difference.
If I had $200k, I would probably pick up the NSX for daily driver (still a very nice "flashy" car) and get a 355 for weekend car. (EVERYONE knows a Ferrari when seen, not true for a NSX.)
My 2 cents.
Er, der, try reading my post again. I was quoting what somebody else stated who had driven both ... thought it was a pretty simply comment!
Anyway, I respect what Honda were trying to do, I'm just saying they would sell more if they did not put so much effort into making it as easy to drive as they wanted it to be.
With all due respect, the above is one of the most surrealy dumb comments to date -- not insulting your intelligence, just the opinion you hold.
I'm sooooooooooo tired of this dogma that true sports car handling is part and & parcel with difficulty of use -- old cars were hard to drive b/c the engineering sucked! (Oddly, no one whimpers about the Elise...)
Fact is, a well balanced chassis will be controllable, refined and predictable; it's the flawed designs that leave us white knuckled and pissed off at the track becuase:
1. "God... this fat pig just pushes and pushes and pushes right through the apex... I can't get shi t for front end grip"
2. "... Dammit, I've already got 335's out back and an 8 foot wing, why can't I get the ass of this heap of shi t to stay put??"
The NSX is a superb car b/c of it's refreshingly easy going character (among the myriad of other reasons). It's still got the inherant mid-engined behaviors (mildy numb front end with a touch of understeer), but for christs sake, it's a street car, and the fact that it is so charmingly "easy" to extract every last tenth out of this chassis should garner it unanimous praise, not complaint.
It's fu cking annoying (and absurdly expensive) to have to tune and tune and tune and tune a chassis to get it to behave -- getting a car out of the box, like the NSX, that is near perfect and crisp is better than a good day at the office.
Like the NSX or not. Think of it as an overpriced accord or not. Whatever. But, if you ignore it as a marvel of contemporary engineering, you're missing the whole point.
Good point and I agree with you but marketing and selling products is not as simple as that ... there is a lot of emotion.
Look at Ducati with the 916/996 and 998 they sold heaps of them, even though they are discussed as the most uncomfortable bike you can ride. Hondas bikes were always designed to be comfortable and they offered far better performance ... but some stayed away because they just need that extra racy image. Honda now have relented with the bikes and are building road racers which are simply awesome ... BTW: I read this comment about relenting and making more racy and less practical bikes in a bike magazine made by a Honda bike engineer.
So yes I do agree that the NSX is a marvel of modern engineering, I am talking about why it has not sold as well as expected.
It is a bit like we all lust after the naughty girl at the nightclub ...
The NSX didn't sell b/c no one wanted to shell out 80k for "just a honda." The fact is, a lot of people have been sold on "emotion" and cannot get passed that; they've been sold an image, some omnipotent automotive "soul" and all that other bullshi t that transforms would be cars guys into chassis snobs -- the price point of the NSX and it's performance obliterated the 348 and most all the cars of it's era, but the world is filled with a bunch of would be dead poet automotive journalists that invoke words like "soul," "emotion" and a lot of garden variety prose to infuse their work with more literary "flair."
Sure, cars are alluring, enchanting and soughtafter, but a lot of people have been impregnated with this false ideology that somehow nothing but an italian car can have "soul." Or that all things german are cold, and unispiring. Or, that all things japanese are appliance like, and shuold be traded like wholesale cattle, etc.
There really are only two groups; on the one hand you've got the poseurs who'll pay anything for image, but deep down aren't cars guys, and don't know dick either way; and then there are the guys that don't give a fu ck and will try it either way, and enjoy whatever.
The latter group talk about track times, tire temps and busted knuckle stories over beers, trackside, at sunset on a Sunday. The former, well, they buy a lot of brand accessories to heighten their fuzzy "soulful" and "spiritied" rallys from their garages to the local Starbucks.
Tangent: about the Ducatis. Yah, the 748/916's were hard on your wrists, but nothing bar risers couldn't handle. I rode Ducatis, and will only ride Ducatis, only until honda/yamaha/kawasaki builds a slender framed/bodied bike (even the rc51 is too big for me -- especially the gas tank area!). Ducati's are made, designed and ridelike no other bike on the planet, but those factors are mechanical and engineering differences, that a far removed from arguments about "sould."
Owning a Duc is great... until... well you get the $800 bill for your 1st 6,000 mile service, and the next $1,100 bill at the 12k service. Or, God forbid you down the bike in say August, when all of Italy is closed.
That said, most any 600CC honda, yamaha and/or kawasaki will outpower,and possibly, overrun a 748 at the track, and at nearly 1/2 the price.
You get where I'm coming from?
I do , and do you think there is a parallel here between Ducatis and Hondas and Ferraris and Honda cars?
Lets face it the Honda motorcycle is far superior to the Ducati in everything that the Honda NSX is superior to any Ferrari, ie. easier to ride, far more reliable, far faster, etc, etc. But ownership of either car or bike has more to it than that ...
Er, as an ex-engineer I personally think that is exactly where soul comes from and why I am an Italian bike/car enthusiast ... but one that has his eyes open and quite often laughs at the stupidity of Italian engineering. I own an Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV which I am currently restoring and in some ways it is beautifully engineered and in others it is laughable ... but it all comes together for an enjoyable driving (slow compared to modern cars) experience.
BTW: Have you seen the new Honda 600rr (I think that is its name) with the underseat exhaust and it is tiny
ps: I'm definitely the lap time person, as I used to make my own club race cars that had no badge and would piss over most cars for 1/10th the price (and comfort, etc.) ... but when it comes to road cars is performance that important ... I think the experience is more important.
I used to love the Honda F900. I couldn't afford one. I mean when it first came out. I really wanted one, but couldn't afford it. I sold my Ducati 888 a few years ago. I miss that thing, but I was gonna kill myself on it. You get a god complex driving those Ducati's.
An NSX is easy to drive around town but don't make the mistake that it's that easy to drive on the limit. However, the chassis does let you know what it's going to do and that is the hallmark of a good chassis.
Let's remember that when Gordon Murray from Brabham was designing the F1, the benchmark car was the NSX.