Barcelona pre season testing 2017

Totally agree with your last point. They make road cars now, time to start making engines. I'm sure much easier said than done but it's time.

 

You keep on and on about McLaren building their own racing engines, but have you considered it's a bit unrealistic to expect that?
McLaren is a small manufacturer compared to the big players in that field like Daimler-Benz, Renault, Honda, Toyota, Fiat-Chrysler or BMW to name a few that have a large company behind their racing effort, plus massive industrial resources and equipment.
There is no way McLaren could compete against them on equal terms.
McLaren sub-contracted the design and fabrication of its road cars engines.

Lotus, Williams, Cooper, Brabham just like McLaren have always used customers engines in the past, like Red Bull.

 

All this is true IMO but that doesn't change that it would be cool for them to make their own lump.

 

McLaren would be mad to even contemplate it.

 

+100

They wouldn't even be able to attempt the old V8's. The current PU is something else altogether in terms of sophistication and resource required.

 

And I'm sure they aren't. If Honda, with all their resources, can't get the job done then there's no chance for a company that's never made their own racing engine before.

That said, I do think many are writing off Honda rather early without the first race even run. Yes, it looks all too familiar a scenario so far but it isn't impossible that pretty much everything boils down to one major problem that they might be able to solve before the season is too far gone. Then again, they might blow up their season's worth of engines in Melbourne qualifying. Time will tell.

Jonathan

 

There more chances RB builds its own engines than McLaren. Anyway, RB is half way there. I wouldn't even be surprised if RB starts building super cars.

 

RB with Aston Martin have built a hypercar already......called Valkyrie

 

From Forbes today.... really interesting. It seems like McLaren is baiting Honda to quit F1 with all the bad comments coming from their side (aka Alonso).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2017/03/17/formula-1-crisis-is-the-legendary-mclaren-honda-alliance-doomed/#1e7da2841e01

In 2015, however, Honda came on board as main sponsor and McLaren’s main engine supplier. If Honda exits this Anglo-Japanese equation, McLaren will lack the necessary funds to continue. Right? Maybe not.

Why is McLaren so cocky these days? Why is the British firm badmouthing Honda and its under-performing engines so much in the media? According to the contract, even if Honda stops supplying engines, sources close to the team tell us that McLaren will still receive a sizeable sponsorship fee from Honda to keep it in the game. That’s in the contract. And for at least the next five years!

Looking at the deal from McLaren’s point of view, the best plan of action would be to provoke Honda to quit its engine supplier status. Under F1 regulations, if Honda cancels its F1 engine program, that opens the door for McLaren to accept engines from another supplier. From the British company’s perspective, there can be no better combination than to have Honda as a main sponsor and Mercedes as an engine supplier?

But for that to happen, Honda has to admit defeat and physically throw in the towel. That’s why McLaren has been baiting the European media with negative comments about its partner. From what I’m hearing, Honda’s senior management have even floated an idea that it may be better to exit stage left now, and incur a monetary loss than continue with an under-performing car, and risk tainting the company’s good name.

Is there a way to stem Honda’s haemorrhaging of money and brand cache from this alliance? The Japanese firm has to believe that it can do what arch-rivals Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault can do. Honda has to hunker down and put the full weight of the company behind its F1 efforts. It has to dig deep and find a second wind. What is it they say? When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Back in the early 90s, no one was tougher than Honda. No one made better engines. Unlike Toyota who pulled out of F1 in 2009 due to lacklustre performance and falling global sales, and Mitsubishi and Subaru who withdrew from the World Rally Championships in 2005 and 2008 respectively, Honda cannot afford to leave F1 with its tail between its legs. Many of my colleagues and I in Japan believe that giving up would do the company more damage than staying and fighting.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IkYITkcTIs[/ame]

 

I guess stranger things have happened but it seems pretty unlikely to me. I can't see any other engine manufacturer agreeing to supply McLaren whilst the cars are carrying Honda logos so that would mean Honda paying but with nothing visible on the car. Secondly, that still leaves McLaren with a customer engine - and possibly not being able to pick their favourite from the other suppliers either. What's more, last time they had a Mercedes engine they were pretty unimpressive with it at end as far as I recall.

Then it is also true that F1 starts to look decidedly shaky with the loss of an engine supplier of Honda's standing because they can't cut it. That's only likely to make any other possible suppliers even more reluctant than they already might be. Then what happens if Renault or Mercedes (or even Ferrari!) pull out?

It is unquestionably in both McLaren and Honda's best interests (and F1's too) that Honda sort their problems and get on terms. If anyone at McLaren is seriously pushing for anything else (as opposed to ensuring they have options if Honda should decide to pull out) then they are very foolish indeed in my view.

Jonathan

 

Honda has just to hope for an economic downturn to have a reasonable reason to withdraw.
They used that excuse several times already to explain lacklustre performance, no?
Last time they even said that it was urgent for them to concentrate their technical resources in researching for more fuel efficient power units for the market demands in view of impending legislation, blah, blah, blah ...
What will they invent this time?

Mitsubishi and Subaru (relatively small players in the global car industry) withdrew from the WEC because they achieved what they were aiming at: win championships and advertise their relatively unknown brand. They didn't leave empty handed or "the tail between their legs", unlike Toyota who left rallying in disgrace after being found blatantly cheating.

 

Something positive could come out of this; the FIA, Liberty and the teams themselves could decide to ditch this crazy engine formula well before its planned end, and work on a set of new engine rules (hopefully simpler and ... noisier!) that could be implemented at short notice.

 

+1....like that idea. According to the Forbes article, Mclaren wins IF Honda stops supplying engines for the next 5yrs and Mclaren decides to go with the Merc. PU AND still get sponsored by Honda.....sounds like a no brainer to me since its taken them 3yrs and they still cannot get it right.

 

I have no idea of there are success clauses in the contract between Honda and McLaren, but the Japanese have in the past left a hefty sum of money, just to get out of the game, without insisting in their name being mentioned.

When Honda decided to close down their team at the end of 2008, they took their engines with them, just abandoned their installations and chassis behind, but gave $100M to Ross Brawn for the following season. That's what financed the Mercedes-powered Brawn team for 2009, with a resounding success.

Could they be so generous with McLaren this time again?

 

The problem with Honda is the aero. This 0 space design is messing with their engine. This is from 2015 but its like they're actively trying to sabotage their own power unit.

Everyone else is using a conventional turbine but they went axial.
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Let's see what happens in a few weeks...

 

Relates to testing and the first race. Interesting -

Mercedes commits to latest-specification F1 engine for Australian GP - F1 - Autosport

Mercedes has confirmed its teams will use the latest version of its 2017 Formula 1 engine at the Australian Grand Prix, despite reports of reliability concerns.

There has been speculation since the Barcelona tests that Mercedes was concerned about a potential problem with its crankshaft, which could have forced it to delay using the latest specification of power unit.

But a high-level source at Mercedes has dismissed those claims, and the manufacturer is sticking to the plan for the works team, plus customers Force India and Williams, to run the updated version that Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas evaluated in the final test.

Mercedes has made a big change to its power unit for this season and there have been rumours that it has been producing up to 70 bhp more on the dyno, but that did not seem to be borne out by its performance in testing.

It appears, however, that Mercedes may have been running with its engines in a more conservative mode in Spain, which has allowed it to trial experimental parts and manage components it is not yet convinced need to be brought into action.

With F1's engine token system having been abolished this season, major updates are now possible when any new power unit is brought in to use, so anything not ready to run now can be introduced later in the campaign.

If Mercedes was running in a more conservative mode throughout testing it could explain why Ferrari, which ran a single power unit for the entire two weeks, may have appeared to hold the edge and why things could be different in Melbourne.

Equally, Mercedes may feel it is not yet comfortable enough to unleash the full power of its engine, so its full potential may not be seen for several races.

 

+1 and address the aero issues.

 

I'm sure they have moved away from this design, and the problem with that 2015 design was not aero but temperature as the axial design ran at too higher rpm.

The problem now maybe aero but you have to be going fast to prove that, and for that you need power which they don't appear to have much, plus I've read here about vibration issues
Pete

 

Here are times for Melbourne: Practice, Quali and GP on NBCSN

TIMES ARE EASTERN HERE IN THE U.S.

Thursday, Mar 23
6:00a - Pro Football Talk
8:00a - The Dan Patrick Show
11:00a - Curling - Women's USA vs. China
1:00p - Curling - USA vs. Scotland: Mixed Doubles
4:30p - NASCAR America
6:00p - Curling - USA vs. Scotland
8:00p - 2017 World Women's Curling Championship
11:00p - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix, Practice
12:00a - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix, Practice 2

Friday, Mar 24
1:30a - Off the Grid - Melbourne
6:00a - Pro Football Talk
8:00a - The Dan Patrick Show
1:30p - Premiership Rugby - Bristol Rugby vs. Gloucester Rugby
7:30p - NASCAR Racing - K&N Pro West Series: NKNPS West Tucson
8:30p - Shotgun
11:30p - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix, Practice

Saturday, Mar 25
1:00a - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix, Qualifying
5:00a - Premier League Behind the Badge: West Bromwich Albion FC
5:30a - Premier League Behind the Badge: West Bromwich Albion FC
6:00a - Premier League Match of the Week
8:00a - Premier League Match of the Week
9:30a - Horse Racing - Dubai World Cup
4:00p - Boat Racing - Super Boat International Offshore Racing
5:00p - Reno Air Race - Gentleman, You Have a Race!
6:00p - 2017 World Women's Curling Championship
9:30p - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix, Qualifying
11:00p - F1 Pre-Race
11:30p - Formula One Racing - Australian Grand Prix

Sunday, Mar 26
2:00a - F1 Extra
5:00a - Premier League Match of the Week
7:00a - Premier League Match of the Week
8:45a - Premiership Rugby - Saracens vs. Bath Rugby
2:00p - 2017 World Women's Curling Championship
5:00p - NHL Live
6:00p - NHL Hockey - Philadelphia Flyers at Pittsburgh Penguins
8:45p - NHL Overtime
9:30p - NHL Sunday Shootout: The Week in Review
10:00p - Sports Jeopardy!
10:30p - Sports Jeopardy!
11:00p - Sports Jeopardy!
11:30p - Sports Jeopardy!
12:00a - World Series of Fighting 35

 

Max Verstappen: Red Bull 'not good enough yet to win' in F1 2017 - F1 - Autosport

Max Verstappen has conceded he doesn't think Red Bull's new RB13 can challenge Mercedes and Ferrari for wins at the start of the 2017 Formula 1 season.

The RB13 was the fourth-quickest car in Barcelona pre-season testing, behind the pace-setting Ferrari team, reigning champion Mercedes and Williams.

While Red Bull is tipped to be part of a 'big three' with Ferrari and Mercedes once the season gets going, Verstappen believes it will not be a proper contender from the first race.

"We still have to wait and see how good we really are," Verstappen told Dutch outlet De Telegraaf.

 

Hell yeah re the aero issues. Reduce costs? Standard, simplified front and rear wings. As LDM had said, the aeros are coming into play at speeds that have no benefit to street car design; at least an argument can be made that pu design innovation can trickle down to street car usage. (Cue the Honda jokes!)

I was very disappointed to hear that passing will be even harder this year; cars are simply too aero sensitive-whatever happened to good old-fashioned drafting? Now you follow a car you lose downforce and grip. Losing the plot imo....

 

Not only will overtaking be more difficult but the advantage to the lead car, running in clean air, could easily be 2-5 seconds per lap. Effectively races will be decided in Q3 and at turn 1. In 2016 the race winner qualified on the front row 18 times (86%). Everything points to 2017 being even more likely to be won by the car that exits the first turn in the lead.

 

+1 I agree completely. Who is writing the regulations and why? I just don't understand what is driving the aero agenda; it multiplies costs in what are already staggering budgets, degrades the racing and has no application to production vehicles. The multiple wing elements look bizarre and shatter on contact, how many yellow flags/safety car periods will we see this season for debris on the racing surface? Every Turn One will littered with bits of carbon fiber.