AVH failure resulting in locked brakes | FerrariChat

AVH failure resulting in locked brakes

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by EVONick, May 27, 2017.

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  1. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #1 EVONick, May 27, 2017
    I got my 488 about a month ago, I've put on ~1400 miles. The AVH system malfunctioned two nights ago, and the brakes locked. Fortunately I was at parking lot speeds, crawling along looking for a space near my house. I was on/off the brake/gas, and at a certain point the brakes locked up, the AVH light came on, and the PARK and whatever light is next to it were blinking rapidly. The message center said AVH problem/failure, go to dealer.

    I had to drive the car a short distance to an open spot, maybe a block, and had to use the engine to push against the brakes the entire time. I parked and waited until the next morning, when the fault had cleared itself.

    Nevertheless, I called Ferrari Roadside Assistance and had the car towed to the dealer to find out the cause, and they will start on it after the holiday weekend.

    Needless to say, this particular malfunction is more serious than a dead car, and could be lethal. Has anyone experienced anything like this?
     
  2. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #2 EVONick, Aug 23, 2017
    Followup:

    Months later, Ferrari does not know exactly what happened. The dealer has replaced the parking brake sensor switch, and the parking brake ECU, with the assumption that it was the parking brake that locked up and not the main service brakes. Having the parking brake lock at low speeds effectively produces the same results as the mains, but at higher speeds would (presumably) not be as disastrous.

    Since I was the only one who experienced how much engine force it took to overcome the locked brakes, I tried to replicate the situation by manually using the e-brake and pushing against it with the engine's power, and the same with the main brakes. When the AVH release system is working correctly, this test is not very easy to accomplish. There are timing issues before the system releases and/or goes into a warning "overload/beep beep/shutdown" condition, so I can only say with slight certainty that it was probably the parking brake that locked. The warning system however, said AVH failure, which according to the manual is the main service brakes.
     
  3. italiafan

    italiafan F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2006
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    Stickbones Swagglesmith
    #3 italiafan, Aug 23, 2017
    I'm willing to bet had you turned the car off and waited 10 seconds it would have restarted and been fine.
     
    Andrew Pour, Sultan_458, AClark and 1 other person like this.
  4. spiders

    spiders Formula Junior

    Jun 8, 2012
    474
    #4 spiders, Aug 23, 2017
    Check the quick release clamp on the negative terminal of the battery. Due to the slight conical shape of battery terminals, the clamp can loosen and result in intermittent connections, throwing intermittent error codes.

    If the clamp is loose it will still appear in place, however, if you attempt to lift the clamp vertically it will slide right up the terminal.

    A bad battery can also result in display of error codes and in application of the parking brake.
     
    Red Rocket and PJxxx like this.
  5. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #5 EVONick, Aug 23, 2017
    You just lost that bet, several times. :D


    Thanks. The car sat for so long awaiting info from FNA that the battery discharged enough to make them recharge it, if there were any terminal issues presumably the R&R would solve it.
     
  6. Joe_CT

    Joe_CT Formula 3
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    May 16, 2007
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    #6 Joe_CT, Dec 28, 2018
    I just had a similar issue with an AHS error so figured I would share here. I have a 2018 488 Spider with ~600 miles on it. I just got the car back from the annual service where they had to also replace the battery as I kept getting stranded with a "complete electrical failure" due to a battery drain issue (I had to start keeping a lithium battery jump pack in the car to ensure I could get home from our weekly Cars-N-Coffee).

    This past Sunday I took the car to Cars-N-Coffee to drive it to see if all the issues were resolved since getting the car back with a new battery. The car ran great and had no issues with car restarting. When I got home I washed the car and when I went to pull it into the garage I got the "AHS" error and the brakes would not release.

    As sad as it sounds, I have learned to not panic and simply shut off the car, opened he door, and let the car set for 2 minutes to reset the computer (I first attempted to just shut off the car and restart but was not successful). Once I did that the error cleared and all has been fine since.
     
  7. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #7 EVONick, Dec 28, 2018
    You are very lucky.

    Ferrari refused to admit my car was problematic, and took the stance of "We fixed it on your first complaint, the subsequent incidents were either you lying or caused by you."

    I filed Lemon Law proceedings and we went to Arbitration. I won and FNA was ordered to Repurchase the car. They signed the Buyback but I have not been paid yet. I'll start another thread with the story when it is finalized.
     
    Red Rocket, sampelligrino, Makuono and 2 others like this.
  8. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #8 Melvok, Dec 28, 2018
    Woow.

    That is serious business Nick, please keep us posted !
     
  9. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #9 MalibuGuy, Dec 30, 2018
    Somehow I believe that the cars have become so complex that bugs and glitches are very difficult for Ferrari to understand and manage.

    With dogged perseverance, solutions can be found. This sort of work isn’t sexy or glamorous, or even lucrative. But Ferrari needs to apply the same level of commitment to this as they do to developing and selling the cars.
     
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  10. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #10 EVONick, Dec 30, 2018
    I don't think it's just Ferrari, it's a systemic problem of the entire industry's move to complex computer code. In this case, it's such an unnecessary feature that it's a shame it created more problems than it solves. A solution in search of a problem.
     
    Red Rocket, Napoli, Rifledriver and 2 others like this.
  11. PJxxx

    PJxxx Karting

    Sep 14, 2017
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    PJ Cusano
    #11 PJxxx, Dec 30, 2018
    Appreciate your post. Just had this exact issue with AVH failure etc etc. and checked and sure enough the quick release was loose. Seems secure now, but seems like it wouldn’t take much for it to slip off again. Do you know anyone who has tried a battery post shim to secure it better?
     
  12. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #12 EVONick, Dec 31, 2018
    Is there any way you can loosen it enough to replicate the problem (say on a rough road) such that the AVH failure becomes reproducible? If so, then perhaps we can establish a correlation with a loose terminal and brake lockup. In my case that was not the issue, so there may be multiple causes of this failure.
     
  13. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    #13 Melvok, Dec 31, 2018
    I doubt that …..
     
  14. graphicdisorder

    graphicdisorder Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2015
    410
    Johnson City, TN
    #14 graphicdisorder, Dec 31, 2018
    488's and brake problems? Never heard of such.

    /sarcasm

    I think 488's have serious brake system issues and Ferrari likes to play dumb. I was not impressed with the brake issues I had and Ferrari more or less acting like it wasn't a thing.
     
  15. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #15 EVONick, Dec 31, 2018
    Were your issues anything like mine? And were they resolved?
     
  16. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #16 MalibuGuy, Dec 31, 2018
    Excuse my French, but what the hell is AVH?
    When I owned the first gen Cali—I routinely got these error messages.

    I’m not sure I benefitted by having AVH in either the Cali or 458!
     
  17. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #17 EVONick, Dec 31, 2018
    Automatic Vehicle Hold? Advanced Vehicle Hold?
    Fancy hill holder system with the stupid engineering decision to have it operate on flat ground as well.
     
  18. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #18 MalibuGuy, Jan 1, 2019
    Thanks for the explanation.

    Can AVH be turned off?
    Is AVH active in both Auto and Manual shifting modes?
     
  19. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #19 EVONick, Jan 1, 2019
    It's on all the time period.
     
  20. graphicdisorder

    graphicdisorder Formula Junior

    Jan 11, 2015
    410
    Johnson City, TN
    #20 graphicdisorder, Jan 2, 2019
    I have had 2 separate brake issues with my 488 before I sold it. One was major rotational noise after temps in brakes, like louder than the engine noise. The other was complete brake failure at 140mph. Ferrari resolved the rotational noise for roughly 2k miles until it returned even louder. After the full brake failure and the weak support from Ferrari I traded my 488. Didn't trust the brake system at all.
     
    Rifledriver likes this.
  21. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #21 EVONick, Jan 2, 2019
    The complete failure: I assume there was no crash involved, and certainly that must've been scary. A different scary as having brakes you know could lock any second.
    When you say complete failure, what exactly do you mean?
    1. Normal pedal but no slowing?
    2. Pedal fell to floor?
    3. Hard pedal, no braking?
     
  22. Joe_CT

    Joe_CT Formula 3
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    May 16, 2007
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    #22 Joe_CT, Jan 2, 2019
    The AVH system is always on as EVONick said, but when I had the AVH Failure, it would not release the parking brake after I started the car. I now hit the button above the parking brake lever when I start the car so it will not automatically apply the parking brake every time you start or shut off the car. I hope if the failure happens again, at least the wheels will be free.
     
  23. EVONick

    EVONick Formula Junior

    Oct 25, 2004
    314
    #23 EVONick, Jan 2, 2019
    Respectfully, you're still playing with fire. Since I know firsthand the AVH Failure can result in brakes locking while the car is in motion, that your car displayed one of my behaviors (lockup while parked), suggests it could easily display the other.
     
  24. Shack

    Shack F1 Rookie
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    May 2, 2005
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    #24 Shack, Jan 2, 2019
    Mine "locked while parked" and there was no way to release the AVH or Park Brake. Not sure if I was just lucky as it happened while I was parking or it was a function of me parking when it happened. Car had to be towed back to dealer to be dealt with (major headache BTW). As EVONick said - "you are playing with fire here" !! - Best to get it looked at ASAP - BTW: my ECU apparently caused the issue.
     
  25. MalibuGuy

    MalibuGuy F1 Veteran

    Sep 18, 2007
    5,280
    #25 MalibuGuy, Jan 3, 2019
    Shame on Ferrari!
    Are they too greedy and arrogant to want to correct a dangerous issue .
    I could care less about their one off cars or LE cars if they don’t care about the safety of their customers. After all, we are the company, Ferrari hasn’t won in F1 for what 10 years! That’s a total joke and an embarrassment!

    For the love of God, at least get the road cars sorted!!!

    Why make customers who pay 350k for a car have to worry about their brakes or battery!

    Makes me want to buy a Tesla which will outpace any Ferrari 0-80
     
    Red Rocket likes this.
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