Audi to run a diesel at LeMans and Sebring

which in my eyes is the downfall of motorracing.....

Diesel engines are perfectly suited for hauling heavy loads over long distances in an economical way but are NOT racing engines.

 

Have faith.

If you understand engines, diesel may not seem like the high performance choice at first, but it makes absolute perfect sense for long distance racing...

 

Cummins diesel (did it win?)
Philip

 

Well, they DO have the reliabilty, fuel economy etc but racing is about about HP, NOT torque.... which makes a Diesel an unsuitable engine.

I know that I am saying this against better knowing as Audi will probably diesel their way to victory at La Sarthe within 5 years from now, I just hope that we'll be able to see the finish through the clouds of black smoke....

 

Diesel has come a long way from belching black smoke. I know, I've designed some of the components that are on trucks now and more stuff that will come out in 2007 when the fuel regs change.

You can still get big power out of a diesel engine, but remember, diesel gives you about 25% better fuel economy with no changes in displacement. At an endurance race like Le Mans, that's a huge advantage.

 

Banks is working on road racing diesel pick up. Pretty neat looking truck. The NASCAR Craftsman truck series runs diesels. They are running M3's in Europe endurance racing which are diesels. Diesels and bio-fuel are a wave of the future.

Excerpt from Banks:
"Because enthusiasts have been conditioned to think of gasoline engines when it comes to performance, the idea of diesels may still be difficult to accept, but consider a few facts. Most race cars use alcohol, not gasoline today. Those race cars that do use gasoline use special high-octane racing gas not available at ordinary gas stations. As long ago as 1952, the car that won the pole at the Indianapolis 500 was a turbocharged diesel. Diesels have since been rendered uncompetitive at Indy by rules changes. The fastest pickup truck in the world is diesel powered. The fastest gasoline-powered vehicle in the world (a streamliner) holds the record at 344 mph, and a diesel streamliner is being built to challenge that record. A diesel pickup is being built to challenge Corvettes and Porsches in endurance racing, and diesel-powered vehicles hold the world’s fuel economy records. Diesels are at the forefront of setting new records and of advanced vehicle development."

The majority of the rental cars we get in Europe are diesels - you'd never know it except for the obvious diesel stickers on the gas tanks. Very quite, no black smoke, lots of torque and VERY common place on the autobahns and autostradas. I have two diesel trucks, neither "pour" black smoke and the DuraMax is VERY quiet.

Here's more about the torque of the engine:
"The Audi R10 The Le Mans Prototype, with over 650 hp and more than 1,100 Newton metres torque, significantly exceeds the power produced by the majority of previous Audi racing cars – including that of its victorious R8 predecessor. Audi ventures into previously unexplored diesel-engine terrain with the V12 power plant manufactured completely from aluminium. As with the TFSI technology, which triumphed initially at Le Mans before being adopted for mass-production, Audi customers should benefit once again from the lessons learnt in motorsport.
“With the A8 4.2 TDI quattro, Audi already builds one of the most powerful diesel cars in the world.”

I hope the R10 cleans house in it's test at Sebring and I can't wait for June to see it run in person in Le Mans.

Carol

 

For me a serious diesel entry would be a reason to skip Le Mans this year.

The Lola Caterpillar that entered in 2004 with the VW V10TDI engine was far away from a thrill to see racing. Lightyears away from the stunning and personal last decade favourite 333SP.

That fuel economy of diesel engines is good, IMO is therefore bad for racing: It just indicates the engine is not capable of transforming enough potential energy into power. And the attendance of the Audiesel is only possible due to softer regulations. For sure they don't allow any petrol fueled 5.5 litre V12 bi-turbo engine in the LMP 900 class!

Diesel should therefore only be available to vehicles with a gross vehicle weight of at least 1500kg (That should be 2000kg for italian cars, to avoid any 612 JTD suggestions), where torque at low revs makes any sense.

 

That's a LOT of horsepower out of a small diesel, and incredable torque. I think there might be tire problems because of the huge torque figures.

 

Personally I think a lot of you are just being elitist. You’re balking at the thought of the diesel because it doesn’t fit into your narrow minded parameters of what a “racing” engine should be.

There have been many discussions on this board regarding racing and whether or not it actually improves the breed. Well, I’ve been saying it for a while and I’ll continue to say it. Formula One, as much as I love it, is a technological dinosaur and the only place you’re going to see any kind of automotive technology being put to use on the race track that’ll improve road cars is in the WRC and LeMans.

Let’s take a look at some of your comments;

First this is just false. In your mind it’s about HP not torque. Second the R10’s diesel engine puts out the maximum HP for the rules, which are governed by the air restrictors. What it does though is it allows for an end run by cranking out huge amounts of torque in addition to the max HP. So what we’re looking at here is that the diesel engine produces the maximum amount of HP for the rules, satisfying your demand that racing is about HP, and delivers more torque than a comparable Otto-cycle engine (gasoline engine).

Where do you guys get this stuff?

First off lets just get one thing straight. A diesel engine is more efficient fuel burner than an Otto-cycle engine (gasoline engine). Did you get that? It burns more of the fuel within the combustion chamber than a regular gas engine. That’s where the equal power and better fuel economy comes into play. So how is this bad? This could very well be the unfair advantage that Audi also had with it’s Quatro Drive system in Trans Am and IMSA GTO. That’s also a reason you won’t be seeing any flames of unburned fuel coming out of the tail pipes on the R10. All of the fuel is burned, there’s nothing left to belch out. As for the torque it’s about 850ft/pound. That’s more than an F1 engine delivers! The gearbox and engine will have to survive the 24hr of LeMans, that’s means that if it survives the race with both gearbox and engine both will have competed more than a entire F1 season in one straight period. But, if I were to begin to argue that point I’d get a bunch of you guys screaming an hollering about how awful it is that F1 is beginning to make their entrants engines and gearboxes go for three measly race weekends.

In what world is a less fuel efficient engine better than a better fuel efficient engine that is as competitive?

Let’s take a look at something else:

This engine is huge for the world of motorsport. This thing is on par with the Cosworth DFV. This will change the face of motorsport as we know it.

 

Not to be provocative, but due to CO2 emission restrictions, ALL sport cars engines ( Mercedes,Ferrari, Lambo`s etc ) in the next 5 to 10 years will be turbodiesel. That because the only way to get in Europe the prescribed fuel mileage by powerful, big engines ( 4 to 6 liters ) will be via turbodiesel technology. Based upon preliminary insider discussions , today the big fear engineers have in adopting turbodiesel by such cars is ( guess what ) ....the engine sound!!!! With turbo and maximum rev at 4500 RPM the diesel engine cannot develop the same vibration mode as the petrol engine at equivalent conditions ( +6500 RPM) so that it is intrinsecally quiet et not exciting enough.

 

Right...
let's celebrate the arrival of this one (IF you can see it through the smoke that is...)... The Ferrari 470 Pisa JTD:
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There will not be any smoke on future diesel engines and particle filters are starting to show up on many new cars in Europe.

Racing is usually explained to the boards as a way to develop new technologies and as advertising. Audi is betting on this...

 

We need to remember that torque is what produces our acceleration and horsepower is what keeps our speed up there. We could have a car with 1000 hp and only 100 lbs ft of torque and it would have a tremendous top end but would take a long time to get there. Drop it to 500 hp and up the torque to 500 and we would see a car that will run away from the 1000 hp one. Now pump in the 650 hp that the new Audi diesel has and give it the 850 lbs ft of torque and we should see outstanding acceleration, strong top speed and fuel economy that may give the Audi the advantage of up to 6-8 mpg. How many pit stops will that cut out over the course of 12 to 24 hours?

It looks as though, like it or not, Audi may usher in that whole new era of engine development that we have wondered about. I wonder how a top fuel dragster would do with a diesel. Hmmm, just a thought.

 

".........This will change the face of motorsport as we know it............"

You nailed it Charles; this is really the issue being tossed around here.......

OTOH:
"......This could very well be the unfair advantage that Audi also had with it’s Quattro Drive system in Trans Am and IMSA GTO......"
And which promptly was banned!
Interesting to see how politics plays out here re diesel........maybe we've evolved......?

NAAH!

James

 

I don't think they are legal; at least in the NHRA

 

I love the idea, I think Audi will WOW! them again, as they did with with the now famous "Transmission" change @ Le Mans with the R8 the first year. I am going to try and see Sebring just to see these cars. Cool is cool!

 

I just brought a 06 Jetta TDI, and love it. Blinding acceration and 43.2 mpg for the first 3000miles.

 

I know. I am an old drag racer myself (see the photo in the profile of Audiguy, not this Shiloh Phoenix signon). Ran altered roadsters for a number of years before getting out about 16 years ago..............It was just a statement of how engines in motorsport are changing.......

 

The "dislike" of an diesel powered racing car has nothing to do with a narrow mind. I work in the heavy truck business and can enjoy the smoothness, sound and efficiency of the the current range of engines. Ecspecially a SCANIA V8 is great! Racing has a lot to do with emotion. And emotion is not present at a Lola Caterpillar or any other diesel cup-racer. I also have driven the different modern TDI's and JTD's, but none of them give the pleasure when you rev up your petrol engine up to 6500Rpm.
And about the power: There is not a single diesel engine that outperformes its also TURBOCHARGED petrol counter part. And there is one main reason, they have a very high torque, only at much to low revs.......................

 

At the restaurant of mr. Genissel in the Hunaudieres that will feel the bad smell of fuel oil instead of the odor of fried without speaking about the dreadful bruit.I will not go more to the 24 heures du mans as long as there will be no Ferrari 250gto replica with fuel oil .....

 

anyone know why prototypes audi are alone LHD ? even french matras were RHD

http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://dbusso.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/matra_lm1969.jpg&imgrefurl=http://dbusso.typepad.com/&h=576&w=640&sz=129&tbnid=qDiI_IFQ0JMJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=135&hl=fr&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmatra%2Ble%2Bmans%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D

 

Yea, I thought about it being banned as well. But, Judd has a diesel in the works for this year as well that supposedly has about the same power but can handle more revs. I'll believe that when I see it. If there is a viable competitive power plant for privateers then I think this will be allowed. Otherwise It'll just be another automotive footnote and I'll be getting exited about nothing.

I think it's time someone dusts off the Chrysler turbine that tried to run a few years ago!

 

I tottaly agree, Diesel engines are good for taxis not for Motor racing.Why ACO regulations permit this stupid thing? BUSINESS!!! Its sad...