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At What Current Price Point Can You Buy a Boxer That Requires Only Reasonable Maintenance?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by Shark01, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. GLENN@TEAM AI

    GLENN@TEAM AI Karting
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    Jun 8, 2018
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    Glenn Butler
    OP, I think your budget is very realistic and there are opportunities out there. Just don't get disillusioned by all the very high priced cars that have been on the market for over a year and are just not moving!! That is NOT where the market is for REAL transactions. I can't believe that no one on Fchat picked up on the following example that was recently for sale. I know the car well as it was my personal car from 2013 until December of 2018 when I sold it to a gentleman in the Northeast. Before me it was owned by another long time Fchatter, fparker.

    https://www.charlescrail.com/vehicles/232/1982-ferrari-512-bbi

    Anyway, in December of 18 when I sold the car I netted approx. 240k AFTER I sold another Ferrari that I had to take in partial trade to get the deal done. Incidentally I had wholesale cash offers on the car at 210k! After less than a year, the owner who purchased the car from me simply decided the car was not for him - too hard to drive, low to the ground, bad northeastern roads, blah blah blah. Anyway, he consigned the car to the dealer in the above link a couple of months ago and I beleive initial ask was 279k. Car was advertised on Hemmings. Price was then lowered to 250k - then had a dramatic price decrease to 195k in mid to late December of 19 as owner had incentive to sell it before the end of the year. The car SOLD for less than the 195k, with wholesale offers around 170k! This is the new reality in this market when an owner needs to move on and can't wait for a top retail buyer. Based upon my experience, they are currently few and far between in the Boxer market.

    And just to recap on the car --judged 97 points at Cavallino in 2017, recent FULL major service (not a "lock & swap"), recent full suspension and brake caliper rebuild on ALL four corners, factory luggage, Red Book certification, an additional Bell exhaust system for more sound, imported from new w/original purchase invoices, original warranty card, records going back to almost new documenting the actual mileage shown on the original and unchanged 320 kph speedo, no ugly side markers, etc! I don't know who purchased the car and perhaps it was eventually wholesaled out so maybe there is still a chance for an end user to snag a good Boxer at a good price. If a fellow Fchatter bought it feel free to let us all know and congrats! Or if you wish to remain anonymous PM me and I can fill you in on everything that I know.
     
    ScottS, donv and Natkingcolebasket69 like this.
  2. sixcarbs

    sixcarbs F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 19, 2004
    7,010
    SF
    I always loved reading about your car. I agree the market has come down, but I think 195K for that one was truly well bought.
     
    Natkingcolebasket69 and BOKE like this.
  3. JohnMH

    JohnMH Formula 3

    Jan 28, 2004
    1,029
    Dubai, UAE
    I bought the best 78 BB I could find back in 2011. A full PPI done, low mileage, no stories, receipts, no accidents, never Federalized. A lovely car. As good as I could find at the time and I looked at (and ordered PPIs done) on cars in Canada, U.S. and Europe. After using it (sparingly) for a summer I noticed a slight noise from a cam drive pulley bearing. That started work on my ‘best’ BB, which led to a complete drivetrain restoration, all rubber replaced, all new cad plating, brake rebuild, clutch, tires, etc. Hey, while you are in there.... The cost of the work got near to the purchase price of the car. I don’t regret it and the car is now fabulous. My point is that you cannot calculate annual running costs for a 40 year old Ferrari in the same way as a modern car. You are just along for the ride, until you are not.
     
  4. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    Jan 5, 2002
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Don
    That's why you ignore the asking prices and make a bunch of offers. I'd start at around $200k, maybe $190, and see what happens. They can always say no.
     
    sixcarbs likes this.
  5. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    3,149
    France
    My uninteresting view is that realistically you cannot buy (at any price) a Boxer requiring reasonable maintenance - it's an old Ferrari...
    Unreasonable maintenance costs are a given, but if you can afford them, it may well be worth it ;)
     
    donv and BOKE like this.
  6. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
    13,515
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    Newman
    The 84 I bought sat outside in Lousianna for 6 years uncovered. It seriously suffered as a result.
     
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  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Owner Consultant

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Newman
    I think its very difficult to find a boxer that needs just a few things to make right and away you go - and that really depends on what you think is right which is a huge grey area vs what I might think is right. It seems most times they either need work or they aren't for sale because someone spent an arm and a leg to make it right and emotions were involved. You find a "great" car that has the original sodium filled exhaust valves and there you go down the rabbit hole. While you're there you find a hard time drawing the line at where to stop because you find the previous workmanship leaves a lot to be desired. Eventually you have an amazing car that cost a lot more than the ones you see for sale and you have an epiphany....You realize how great a sorted one is and how unsorted the ones for sale really are giving you a warm fuzzy feeling. A sorted boxer is a rewarding car to drive.
     
    donv, George Vosburgh, ross and 2 others like this.
  8. ross

    ross Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Mar 25, 2002
    31,117
    houston/geneva
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    Ross
    that is exactly right.

    when i bought mine, the previous owner said it was perfect.
    it wasnt. and i knew it at the start, but i paid top dollar for a complete and unmolested car with provenance.
    AND THEN i handed it over to my mechanic for a full mechanical overhaul.
    luckily for me, we made an assessment and then agreed on an all-in price.....because after it was all done, it had cost the shop twice that.

    but the result was that i had a very sorted and capable car.
    picked it up and a week later ran the targa florio/giro di sicilia with it.
    (it ran faultlessly except on the last day run to the ferry where the inadequate fuseboard had a problem with the sweltering heat in palermo, but thats another story)
     
    BOKE likes this.
  9. Shark01

    Shark01 F1 Rookie

    Jun 25, 2005
    3,543
    Thanks for responding.....between your post and a few others, it's time to let this dream die for me and go in another direction permanently. I can't afford to pay top dollar (for me) and still have a reasonable probability that even that car is hiding $40k of issues. Thanks everyone for your input!
     
  10. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    Jul 13, 2009
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    George G. Geef
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    Well, the car sold for $220K in Kissimmee. They should have taken the $240K it was "bid" to in Las Vegas in October. Mecum auctions seem to have a pattern of cars being shill bid right up to the reserve and not selling and then moving to a new venue. When the reserve came off, the seller got $20K less. Total **** show IMHO.
     
    BigTex likes this.
  11. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    72,820
    Houston, Texas
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    Bubba
    Franklin Parker's Boxer is indeed a wonderful car, as is ross's...

    If it were me (which of course, it is NOT, I was "out" way back on VIN #19271!) I would let Albert-LP loose to search in the Italian/European market.
    IMO there's a vast unrecognized inventory of original Boxers there, that did not face the rigors of North American import.

    Your money might go farther in that Market?
    I would also trust Turbo Joe with the assignment!

    These are long term Ferrari guys in that market that would know what they were looking at!!
    The purchase trip might be more $$$ but I would LOVE to go hang out, with either Fchatter!!!
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    It's a very hard thing, for me, to judge if the current Exotic market downturn is a temporary trend that will reverse and go back to a climb, or if, like Brass Era and American Muscle cars, it's a permanent devaluation based upon changing times and the rise of modern machines.

    I'm afraid the future is going to be very different, in a lot of ways.
    Sorry for the off track comment.
     
    Natkingcolebasket69 likes this.
  13. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    Albert_LP showed us a one owner car, coming to market, not that long ago....just imagine!
     
  14. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
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    Pittsburgh, PA
  15. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    Jul 13, 2009
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    George G. Geef
    That car sold five years ago in Scottsdale for $357K, including fees. It had 8,553 miles on it back then. The current owner must have driven it in reverse ever since.

    Most likely, it probably got a new metric speedo for importation into Canada.

    https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22205/lot/184/
     
  16. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,797
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Wow, is that legal to switch out a speedo? It's still a very nice car.
     
  17. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    Jul 13, 2009
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    Anything can happen on Boxers. They are all non-US cars. The car actually had a metric speedo in Scottsdale from the auction pictures when I took a second look. This brings a new meaning to YMMV Consult @Newman for an expert opinion.

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    I own a 1998 355 GTS F1 that is Canadian that has a metric speedo. The DMV in Nevada just records the odometer as Miles, even though it reads in Kilometers.


     
  18. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    why should it not be legal?
     
  19. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    In the US, there are requirements to provide a statement if a vehicle's odometer has been changed. There are both Federal and State laws involved.

    Some states have exemptions that cover cars over a certain age. YMMV
     
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  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    here in germany there is not such a law
    how it is in other european countries I don´t know
    also in germany there is no law that a speedometer must also have a km/mileage counter, only a speedometer is a must
     
    BOKE likes this.
  21. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    Jul 13, 2009
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    Over 40 years ago, I was taught by my Porsche mentor that the mileage showing on the odometer is just a meaningless number.:rolleyes::eek::D
     
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  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    not only at porsche

    but it can be a reference point when all of the rest of the car matches with this together
     
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  23. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
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    Jul 13, 2009
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    True dat!!! So many buyers fixate on mileage and service records without carefully examining the car itself. I am buying cars, not stories.

    It is always nice to know a car was well maintained over its lifetime, but service records to little to nothing to establish the actual condition of a ca. A lift, flashlight, and a few tools in hand do more than ten boxes of service records and old receipts ever will when buying vintage cars.

    As a side note, I have bought quite a few jumping horses from Germany over the years. The sellers always provide Veterinary records and X-rays of their significant joints and feet of each horse. I always go to Germany with MY Veterinarian and his digital radiology set-up to do our own pre-purchase exam.
     
    boxerman likes this.
  24. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2011
    2,797
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Please excuse my naiveté !
     
    BOKE likes this.
  25. Capt. Rich

    Capt. Rich Karting

    Jun 9, 2008
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    Palm City, Fl.
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    Richard Baumgart
     

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