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Discussion in 'F1' started by jgonzalesm6, Feb 4, 2021.
Copying is easy.
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Well, at least Ferrari cheated better than Aston Martin: they were not get caught. And there is a big difference: FIA forced Ferrari to modify their car. In the case of Aston Martin, it´s not just that they were allowed to run the illegal car for two seasons, but that such a cheat could not have been made if FIA hadn´t turned a blind eye and had the collusion of another team.
So for me Aston Martin is still ahead in the ranking of cheaters, a big feat given their short history. Anyway, let´s not go on with this puerile thing of "yours is bigger than mine".
Right. Copying and getting away with it is the master stroke. All hail Lawrence Stroll.
As far as I know, both teams were sanctioned by the FIA.
There were financial penalties imposed, on both.
Ferrari was subjected to some restrictions limiting their power for 2021.
Points were deducted from Racing Point score for 2021.
The difference is that Ferrari benefited from more secrecy.
Ferrari could have not reached an agreement and FIA still wouldn´t know.
The points that were substracted from Racing Point were for the only infraction that couldn´t be covered: the brake ducts. The rest of the car was cloned, Mercedes knew it, the rest of the teams knew it, FIA had to knew it, and in the end it was all thrown under the carpet.
Not the same. But as I´ve said, I don´t want to get into a debate about "mine is bigger than yours".
Would it be safe to say Ferrari got caught cheating in 2019(Austin) and into 2020.
We really don't know how long Ferrari had been "cheating" the original fuel flow sensor?? 2018??? 2017??? Maybe 2016??
It's all speculation.
From what we know, it could have been from 2014.
And it couldn´t be before 2014 because there was not flow sensor back then.
I think so too.
I haven't come across anything saying otherwise and I don't think I ever will.
As it stands, the "cheating" started in 2019(Austin) and 2020.
Ferrari's only solution to increase power in these turbo hybrids was to inject more fuel into the ICE thereby "bypassing" or tricking the fuel flow sensor regs.
That's my opinion of course. I'd be happy to hear any other ideas.
Well, if that was the case, that Ferrari managed cleverly to circumvent the fuel flow limit, that was serious cheating.
It places them in the same category as Toyota by-passing the air restrictor with a secret device on its rally car engines, and they got banned from the WRC for it !
Compared to that, cloning a car looked very clumsy, I have to say, because it's so obvious to the naked eye it was immediatly detected.
How Racing Point expected to get away with it, I can't fathom. They were reasonably punished for it, IMO.
The point is that both teams, Ferrari and Racing Point, were caught exploring the limits of the rules, and going beyond.
The Ferrari fuel scandal cost performance loss to 3 teams, 2 of them totally innocent. At least RP's "shortcut" damages only themselves.
The brake ducts were the Achile"s heel of Racing Point, and the FIA concentrated on that to sanction them.
No point suing them for the design of the whole car when concentrating on just one component put them in the dock anyway.
It's a legal tactic that often pays off.
Todt has rolled over for Stroll and Toto.
It's possible that Ferrari's technique occupied a grey area of the rules, hence FIA embarassment & silence.
Ferrari though cheating was, too.
How else can you account for the loss of 50+HP when a second fuel flow monitor was added to the engine ?
If Ferrari were breaching the rules, FIA would have published it's findings.
FIA were embarrased that Ferrari found a loophole, and wanted Merc to continue their run.
That's not proof
Article in Italian so use google translate but headline says it all: “AM Already Copied Mercedes’ Secret Design”
People are droning on about Ferrari and their PU as if they know exactly what happened and as if no other team was doing something similar yet here is just blatant thumbing of nose to the rules and FIA.
Probably someone from Merc with knowledge of the car placed at AM early enough (no gardening leave) in the design process to influence the AM design for the flood and the side pods which did a 180 from AM’s development last year and predicted the side pods of the ‘21 Merc.
I would actually laugh if AM said that they didn't copy of Merc, but Merc of them
Nobody else's engine lost power !!
And you know this how?
All the other manufacturers had time before the FIA lock-down to fix their engines, unlike Ferrari who were locked down in Italy.
Pop back when you have proof.
There’s no definitive proof. Just like there’s no proof of which engine manufacturer was burning oil and how much power they lost when the FIA clamped down.
A long Sebastian Vettel interview with AUTOhebdo(French)
What are your first impressions after your arrival at AM?
Vettel: "I'm very excited. It's a completely new car for me. I am spending a lot of time with the engineers to try to understand & master the differences, both on a technical level and in terms of procedures."
"I hope it won't take me too long to get used to it. You can feel the excitement in the team."
"Every car has its own unique behaviour. Of course, everyone has their own preferences, but if you are happy and satisfied with everything that is going on around you, you can adapt very quickly, master the car & push it to its limits in one way or another."
"That said, Mercedes is always the favourite. It can't be otherwise after all their years of success. We remain realistic and know that we are starting a new project. The team has been growing since last year and this season we are relaunching the AM team."
"It is very exciting to be part of the adventure. At the same time, F1 is changing with the introduction of a budget cap, which is more of a measure than a game changer for us, compared to the historical points teams."
"We are at the beginning of the road and we do not expect to reach our destination tomorrow. But if we manage to win, I don't think many people will mind (laughs) but it won't be easy."
"We have a lot of work to do. I'm looking forward to getting on the track, being myself, and having a good time, if I'm happy, the results will follow."
You were coming off a 2020 season that could be described as a horrible year. Did you digest it and get rid of the frustration and moved on?
Vettel: "The whole season was difficult. I thought about it a lot last year. I'm not happy with the way it went."
"I am not satisfied with my performance. But I have no regrets. I would have liked some things to have happened differently, but in the end I'm at peace with that period. I know that last season was not up to my standards, & by that I mean my personal goals."
"I don't care what people think, say or, excuse me, write because my expectations of myself are extremely high. Now I am fully focused on the future."
Aston executives have often repeated that you seem to have lost your "mojo" at Ferrari. Do you think you have already regained it back?
Vettel : "The term "mojo" does not have a meaning in German. Maybe that's the best way for me to answer that question (laughs)."
"It's no secret that I wasn't the happiest man last year. I can't wait for the new season to start. I am surrounded by a group of very enthusiastic people. They are driven by a great state of mind."
"The workforce is much smaller than at Ferrari, partly, because we don't build an engine. We are on a reverse trajectory compared to most of the big teams, especially the ones where I raced previously."
"The situation is a little different, but what matters it is not to have luxury chairs designed by prominent designers in the design offices. What interests me is the job done behind the scenes. From what I could see, the people are very talented."
"And for the first time in many years, this team were given enough oxygen to breathe properly."
Technical Director Andy Green said you need love. Are there more hugs at Aston?
Vettel: "It's hard to hug nowadays and everyone wears masks (laughs). The world as a whole needs love."
"On a more serious note, the people at Aston Martin F1 have given me a really warm welcome, they are very caring and attentive. They made my integration much easier."
"I have to adapt to many things. I will be using a new engine, the buttons are not the same, some of the names are not the same, I don't want this to interfere with the driving. But I haven't just arrived in F1 so I know what to expect."
When Fernando left Ferrari, he said that Ferrari could not win the championship with the organisation in place at the time. Do you feel the same now?
Vettel: "In 2014, Ferrari didn't win the title so Fernando was right. Many things happened during my years at Maranello."
"Some seasons were better than others. I am happy to turn the page. I had a great time at Ferrari, I learned a lot. I met a lot of incredible people and racing for this team is a unique experience. These memories will stay with me for the rest of my life."
"I am now looking forward to the new challenge that lies ahead. I am not stuck in the past, I always like to look forward."
"Lawrence Stroll is very determined and enthusiastic. He works incredibly hard. He doesn't just provide for the team. He is very involved. He pulls us up and pushes us in the right direction."
"It's difficult to set a target for this season. Last year, the team was fighting for the third place, so that is our unofficial or official target for 2021. People are hungry for victories. This is the first time they can compete with a budget similar to other teams."
"It won't be easy to close the gap quickly, but that's our ambition not just for Lawrence but for the whole team."
Aston Martin has set themselves a target of 3-5 years to fight for the title. Will you still be in the team by then? Do you think you still have what it takes to win another world title?
Vettel: "I think so. I am not too old yet. And I don't think it's related to age anyway."
"It's more a question of the car and the team. F1 has always been like that, as far back as I can remember. In the last few years, you had to be in a Mercedes to win the title. I'm not telling you anything new."
"I got close at times with Ferrari, but we were never close enough to be in the fight until the last 2-3 races of the season. Winning my first championship was a relief, because you know you can do it. I don't see why not."
"To win, you have to be in it for the long time. If we take Mercedes as an example, we can see that they have laid the foundations for their dominance from 2011-2012 and with the introduction of the new hybrid powertrains, they have taken a long lead."
"And yet, the Mercedes chassis was not extraordinary in 2014. It took a few more years for that to happen. Things take time in F1 and there is only one winner in the end, so congratulations to Mercedes."
"F1 is going through a phase of change. Everyone hopes that the gaps will close, you don't want to be on the podium only because the leaders have given up. We'll see how F1 evolves in the coming years, but as far as age goes, I think I've got a lot of years left in me."
"I feel like this rear end stability discussion has gotten out of hand. If you look at the cars I drove at Red Bull or in my early days at Ferrari, the rear end was sometimes a bit nervous. I don't think I'm any more vulnerable than anyone else in this area."
"I don't like it when the car is really understeering. With oversteer, you have room to make moves. With understeer, there are some driving techniques, but your hands are a bit less free. I like it better when the rear end is loose a bit, it helps you turn."
"Obviously if the rear is very unstable, you lose a lot of time and nobody likes that."
What do you think of the prospect of sprint races that could appear over three race weekends this year?
Vettel: "I don't understand the reasoning behind this decision. I don't like this project. Why organise a pre-final before a final? What is the point?"
"Of course if there is a race on Saturday, I should take part, because I don't want to compromise my Sunday, but it doesn't make sense to me. The GP has always been 300km long and is the highlight of the weekend."
"If you need to introduce this kind of concept, then there is another problem to deal with than the format. It's more of a band-aid than a real solution"
How do see your working relationship with Lance?
Vettel: "It's very simple: I'm the old guy and he's the young guy. It's not just a question of age on the passport, but also of experience. Lance has a lot of talent & a great natural speed. He can still learn a lot."
"I'm happy to help Lance if I can. I've never hidden anything from my teammates in the past. I don't see why I should start doing that now. I would have loved to have received advice when I was younger. This can only be a win-win situation."
"What Lance had to face was not always fair. He has proven time and time again that he is very fast. Just look at his pole position in Turkey. I have rarely encountered more complicated conditions in 15 years of F1."
"It takes a lot of talent to stay on track and then take pole. Some drivers arrived in F1 very young, but they were very prepared. Others follow a different development process and reach their peak later."
We know the close ties between Aston Martin and Mercedes, as well as the bosses of their respective teams. In addition to your nationality, is this an asset to be one day at Mercedes?
Vettel (smiles): "I don't know if my passport plays a role."
"The Mercedes engine is considered to be the most powerful in the field. It's the first time I'll be driving it. We don't have to worry about the engine or its development, so we can concentrate on the chassis. And there is a lot of work to do in this area."
Could you replace Lewis if he decides to leave at the end of 2021?
Vettel: "I don't know what Lewis' plans are. I saw that he signed for one year. My home is here at Aston Martin F1
now and there is a lot to do. That kind of thinking doesn't occupy my mind."
"I'm not sure there is always a link between pressure and pleasure. You can have fun while under pressure. I'm the first to set high goals for myself. To me, nothing changes. The reaction is the same when you cross the line. You are the first and best judge."
"I'll be happy to be under a ton of pressure if it means I'm in the fight for the championship."
Do you think a customer team can win in the hybrid era, especially against its engine supplier?
Vettel: "I'm not worried about that at all. Your fears are a bit outdated. The world is changing. In the past you may have been right, but those days are gone."
"When you team up with a manufacturer like MercedesAMGF1 you can have full confidence in them. You will receive equal treatment. If you are faster, you will be allowed to beat them."
Is the Aston Martin project a way to silence your critics?
Vettel: "I am not interested in what people think. I'm more interested in proving things to the team and to myself."
"If you ask a 15 year old who Juan Manuel Fangio is, chances are he doesn't know him. It's not the end of the world. And we're talking about a legend whose legacy will live on longer than any other driver."
"I am sure that when the time comes for me to say goodbye to F1, I will be forgotten very quickly. And I'm fine with that, I even think it's healthy. That's why I don't care about proving something to people."
"I hope that this will not give the impression of me being egoistic and arrogant, but I understand myself, the team around me, and all the supporters who have been with me for years, regardless of my results."
"In F1, everything goes very fast. You are judged by your last 3-4 races, you can become a hero after a few good performances out of nowhere, just as you can have more than 50 wins on your record - like me - and be considered as an average driver. That's how it is."
Marko: Vettel should have taken a year off from F1 in 2021
By: Luke Smith
Co-author: Christian Nimmervoll
Apr 6, 2021, 4:17 AM
Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko believes Sebastian Vettel should have taken a year off from Formula 1 in 2021 instead of joining Aston Martin.
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After being dropped by Ferrari last year, four-time F1 world champion Vettel explored a number of options before ultimately signing with the rebranded Aston Martin squad for 2021.
Vettel endured a difficult debut for Aston Martin in Bahrain. After being knocked out in Q1 and receiving a grid penalty, the German driver finished 15th after a clash with Esteban Ocon that landed him a 10-second time penalty.
Aston Martin struggled to battle at the front of the midfield in Bahrain as it did throughout last year, with the team believing the updated regulations had hurt its low-rake car concept.
Asked about Vettel’s struggles, Marko said he had not changed his view that the former Red Bull driver should have taken a year out before returning under the new regulations in 2022.
“I was of the opinion, I told you that too, that he should take a year off, sort himself out, ask himself what he wants,” Marko said in an exclusive interview with Autosport German language sister site Formel1.de.
“I believe that a lot is possible within Formula 1 next year. He didn't do that. Now he sits in the Aston Martin, which of course suffers similar to the Mercedes [with low rake].
“They are very similar cars. And this race was far from being the one that could have brought relief.”
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Sebastian Vettel, Aston Martin AMR21
Photo by: Zak Mauger / Motorsport Images
Despite largely freezing the technical regulations for 2021 in a bid to cut costs in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, the FIA moved to reduce downforce levels and slow the cars down.
The main thrust of the downforce cut centred on the floors of the cars, and appears to have hurt the teams with low-rake car concepts more than those running high-rake set-ups.
Mercedes has also been hampered by the rule change, with Aston Martin team principal Otmar Szafnauer estimating it was worth around one second per lap.
Although Marko agreed that Aston Martin had been hurt by the rule changes, he felt it did not fully explain the performance gap the team now faced.
“Let's go back to the test where Mercedes had a very unstable rear end: Mercedes managed to stabilise that to a large extent,” Marko said.
“Whereas with Aston Martin, as far as I have seen, they have not succeeded to that extent. They will eventually get better handling together as well, but apparently not to the level of Mercedes.
“And that one-and-a-half seconds [to Mercedes], I would say, is not just with Vettel, it's partly in the car.
“At the moment, I think Aston Martin is in sixth or seventh place in the ranking. But with the Mercedes engine and with the possibilities they have now, they will surely move up.
“But that doesn't change anything. The crash when [Vettel] drove into Ocon was incomprehensible.”