As I said this sort of stuff happens all the time ...

Thanks for the link . Check this interview with Mosley also.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/40276/

 

Ferraris most famous car was a "cheat"

everything ive seen says this happened before any dossier was passed over.
and came to light via 2 engineers from rival teams communicating.

+1
except apparently it was 3 cds (or possibly even dvd's)

funny how all the F1 insiders say it does.
you might not like it and its certainly not honourable - but i think if ppl in the know say it happens then it probably does happen and we all need to accept that

 

+1
good summary and one (unlike most) not blinded by red fever.

 

so are you saying that as long as theyre slow its ok ?

 

different circuits suit different cars.


i have to ask, are you a new fan to F1?

 

No are you??

 

lets not even start on tyre info.
the fact that Ferrari had more data than most other teams on the tyres that EVERYONE this season had to use is i think disgraceful.

aerodynamics - some decent photos and a program that can scan into 3D would cover that.

chassis - i guess your talking weight distribution etc
comes under info for tyres really

brakes - this was the only thing i found a little worrying.
the report did seem to indicate they were looking at the physical system, but again i have to point out that braking is very much to do with tyres.

true, but then no one knows do they.

i dont see that - tyres yes (for rather unfair reasons) but not the rest.

like it or not its true.

the WMSC pdf that you repeatedly refer to makes no reference at all to RD knowing anything.

 

hi carol

hows Spa ?

 

not at all - ive followed it for over 20yrs.
now please dont take this the wrong way, but you however dont seem to grasp things that any real fan would know after a single season or so

 

I've followed F-1 for over 30years .First GP I saw in person was 1978 British GP at Brandshatch .Carlos Reutemann won it in a Ferrari.

What is it that I'm not grasping . That Mclaren are not cheaters???? Please elaborate.

 

I think the issue in question was why the McLaren was slow after the first race and faster after the others.

 

If you're talking about Malaysia:

1. Ferrari Flex Floor (which they knew about from Stepney).
2. Car development after being 1 s/lap slower than Ferrari in Melbourne.(which may or may not have been derived from Stepney's emails)
3. Knowing what lap both Ferrari drivers were going to pit. If you remember FA was flying in his first stint.
4. Massa screwing up his pass of Hamilton.

 

All stuff from conversation. Not important.

 

Well, I have been following racing since I was in 1st grade, thats over 40 years ago. I have no time for cheating, stealing, espionage, larceny, blackmail, recieving stolen property, or any other illegal activity in or out of racing. PERIOD! I wont accept it, I wont tolerate it. When its happened in particular sports, I stop watching. This is why I no longer watch professional baseball or football, I feel its all rigged. F1 is the last best hope, and while minor cheating might be overlooked, something of this level just cannot be tolerated by good people. Makes no difference if they used any of the material, possession carries the same penalty. If you witness a crime and do nothing, your an accomplice. If you steal propriatary documents from your employer, its espionage. If you accept money for stolen property, its theft. If you buy stolen property, your just as guilty of theft. Regardless of who got away with what yesterday, it makes no difference today. The rules are the rules. Stepney is most likely going to get a long prison sentence, as will probably Coughlan. If what they did is illegal enough to put them solidly behind bars, I wont lose any sleep over fining McLaren $100mm. I think they should have been totally banned clear through next season.

Now please dont take this the wrong way, but you however dont seem to grasp the concept of right and wrong that an average citezen should know after a few decades or so. But my patience at hearing people make excuses for blatant illegal activity has about come to its end.

 

hang on.
i never said it was right - just that all the teams do it.
the problem is, if your going to punish one then you need to punish all of them.

the toyota infraction from the other year was a lot worse than this - what penalties were they given ?
renault this year had 3 entire cd's (or possibly even dvd's) worth of McLaren data - i havent noticed them being punished.

now if your saying the espionage should be stamped out then i wholeheartedly agree
but i have no idea how you might go about that - especially not when it seems the teams dont even have to go looking for the information and instead its being freely given to them by members of the other teams

oh yeah and i dont think that punishing one team when everyones at it is particulary fair

 

Sorry man, but in every post you have made on this issue you have basically defended McLaren with the excuse that everyone does it, and gone so far as to accuse Ferrari of being guilty because Stepney was an employee. Somehow you seem to imply that if Stepney murdered someone at McLaren, Ferrari would be somehow guilty of that too? No sir, I cant let you wriggle away so easy.

I believe the FIA wanted the boys to go away and make nice, not penalise anyone to awfully bad. But Ferrari was PO'ed, being basically stiff armed by McLaren, and they pushed back, they may have threatened to pull out, who knows? The FIA was caught in the middle, they couldnt very well pass off McLaren with so much damning information being blazed over the airwaves while Ferrari brought forth more and more evidence. The FIA was backed into a corner and forced to act. And McLaren didnt help themselves by making erroneous admissions and simutaneously trying to hide the truth. They dug thier own hole for themselves. I think the only reason the FIA didnt strip the drivers points and ban McLaren outright was simply to keep some semblance of a race schedule and WDC going. I think its wrong, but I can accept it. If it comes to light that they had an advantage though, I would hope they are further penalised.

As to the other events regarding Toyota etc., thats up to other parties to bring to the FIA, show thier evidence, and/or the FIA to act. But it has no particular bearing on this case. McLaren stole from Ferrari, and Ferrari got thier day in court. If Mclaren or whoever wants to pursue other avenues with the FIA regarding theft or espionage, they can do whatever they want. Hopefully with this case behind us the episodes of cheating will greatly diminish. I sure hope that they do.

But I look at this like watching our son play Hockey. I want him to play fair regardless of what anyone else is doing. I dont care if everyone out on the ice is beating each other to death, I dont want to see him go down to thier level. I dont want to see him in the penalty box or getting rejected from a game, and giving out the excuse that everyone else did it. So regardless what other teams have done or how FIA has responded, those actions do not change the rules. Just like a police officer not ticketing you for speeding 10 over, it still dont change the speed limit. I might come along right behind you and get nailed. Imagine how the judge would respond if I told him you speeded and didnt get a ticket. You think he would let me off over that? Think they would stop enforcing speed laws? Nope, McLaren pushed thier arrogance to far, and this time they got bit. I dont feel one bit sorry for them.

 

Great post !

At first the FIA basically did nothing ( in Mclarens favor ), which caused the pendulum to overcompensate in the opposite direction ( in Ferraris favor ).
In the end the FIA gains and the teams loose, yes Ferrari included, you shall see.
Once again it is the FIA/Bernie/Max show's inability to regulate and give just decisions that harm all teams but end up in a perverse way benefiting themselves.

 

the people on this forum really need to work on their analogies.

what ive actually said on the subject of Stepeny is this

the rules state that each team is responsible for the conduct and action of its staff.
if under that rule the FIA penalise McLaren for the actions if its staff members Coughlin, DeLa Rosa and Alonshole then under the same rule they musto penalise Ferrari for Stepneys actions.

You cannot make hold one company responsilbe to upholding the rules but not the other.


oh and its nor me who is saying "everyone does it"
its people who have actually been involed in the sport - quite a lot of people in fact.

i agree

im not sure thats a road you want to go down.
Ferrari havent exactly covered themselves in glory here.
sure McLaren were guilty of something but Ferrari with their leaks to the press etc, not to mention that ridiculous pitlane stunt at Monza have helped bring the sport into disrepute.

this is true - to a degree.
i really dont think RD knew the details about the dossier info being used - bar the "normal" swapping of info we have been told happens

by the looks of it most of the data being discussed was data that should have been given to all the teams initially - let us not forget we started the season with some teams having much more info on the tyres situation than others - unacceptable when under the rules ALL teams now have to use these particular tyres.

incidentally do you also hope that Renault are penalised for having 3 cd's worth of Mclaren data - and only giving some of it back when queried ?

thats a cop out - the Toyota case went to court and 2 people ended up in jail
the FIA should have intervened but didnt.
and my own personal view is that they didnt because no one cared as Toyota were crap - that makes this current case very politically motivated in my mind.

Stepeny stole.
McLaren simply didnt do the right and honourable thing and give the info back (or destroy it) that isnt theft, its very wrong but it isnt theft.

ive never said that because everyone does it that makes it ok, because its very clear that it doesnt.
it does make it more understandable and/or acceptable in some peoples eyes though.
the other thing is that this isnt just a sport anymore - its a business.
and in business sometimes you need to do the same sort of underhand acts as your competitors or soon you'll find its no longer your business ans your broke/continually losing etc - or maybe if thats not acceptable to you (and i hope it wouldnt be if i was in that position) then its time to leave.

 

you're the only one that believes that ... if it looks like a duck walks like a duck quacks like a duck it must be a poodle according to some here

 

they're still a pack of proven cheats and are paying the WCC and $100M price for it, end of story

will always be known as the McCheaters

 

Get Real.

Once you finish college and get a job in the real world I would strongly suggest you don't have similar "coversations". You'll ruin your reputation and you'll never get another job (not even at Mcdonalds).

THAT'S very important. Just ask Mike Coughlen. BTW in real life you have to also earn the title Mr.

 

And this right here, is where myself and virtually everyone on this board says you are wrong. The very second, the instant, that Stepney placed his hands on Ferrari property with intent to steal it, he ceased being an employee. The moment he recieved funds for the property, he ceased being an employee. This is what you seem to have trouble understanding. Stepney wasnt acting on behalf of Ferrari, he wasnt directed to do this by Ferrari.

Now just because he was still employed by Ferrari is beside the point. If I am your employee, and I am taking product out the back door at night and passing it off to "friends", you certainly cannot say I am acting in your best interests or the interests of the company. You could think the world of me, but if you caught me and found I had been stealing for a while, you would toss me out the door post haste. In fact, it has not been unheard of for fired employees caught in illegal activities to be liable for back pay, as the employer regards conduct against the company as treason and can claim you were NOT an employee after that date and demand back your paid income. If however you knew I was taking product, and in fact, discussed that I do so for some illegal scheme you had up your sleeve, now I AM acting as your employee. Fine line this.

I feel this way towards Stepney, that he was NOT an employee, but a thief. Ferrari is no more responsible for his actions than you are. And as for Stepney, I shudder to imagine life in an Italian Prison after being convicted of selling out Ferrari. I have a feeling it will make his whole week.

As to others such as Coughlan, RD, etc., there is an old word that seems long forgotten these days, Integrity. If McLaren Mercedes had any Integrity, they would have tossed Coughlan out asap. But they didnt, instead they suspended him with pay. If RD had any Integrity, he could have walked away from McLaren asap, blown the whistle to FIA, and washed his hands of the whole mess. But he didnt. Same goes for LH, FA, or anyone else who may have been intimately involved or had knowledge of something this illegal.

As to cheating, I have been aware of its goings on in racing since before I was born, It certainly well predates auto racing. But there is gentlemanly cheating, there is blatant cheating, and there is true theft and espionage. They are not all one in the same in my eye.

If you are invited to my garage and take mental note of my work, sneak a photo when my back is turned, or watch me with binoculars out in public, thats is accepted gentleman style cheating. Go for it.

Then you have the not following the rules stuff. Sneaking wieght on and off, concocting fuel mixtures, whathaveyou, the outside the rules Ferrari wing bottom for example. I dont like to see it, but its acceptable blatant cheating. Get caught, get a fine or penalty. Or dont get caught.

Then you have true theft and espionage. This can in no way, in a civilized world, be allowed as acceptable behavior, and ranks far beyond simply cheating. Stepney is a thief, Coughlan is a thief, and McLaren Mercedes is a thief. Because Mercedes is behind them, I put them in the same boat. I am disgusted, POed, and dont like none of it. Lest you think I am a Mercedes hater, I am not. Alongside my lil 308 sits a pretty lil MB SL roadster. I loved the years watching Mika and MS do battle, and sometimes couldnt decide who I wanted to see win. But the last few years they have not acted very professionally and this tops the cake. Winning at all costs isnt always winning, and as I taught my daughter, a winner never cheats, and a cheater never wins. This will be a bad mark against McLaren Mercedes for a long long time. Maybe not for you, but I certainly wont forget this any time soon.

And Ferrari should take note, I wont tolerate that kind of BS with them, or anyone else either. Stay within the accepted boundaries.

 

Very good point.

I am certain that the FIA would much rather have had an amicable resolution to this dispute be handled by the teams but given the publicity generated by this and by the actions of all the participants, they had no choice but to act.

In reading the WMSC decision, it seems like the only new information they had was the Alonso emails. Somehow they revisited their previous decision that no utilization of the information was used in the car's development to: while they don't know if the information was used, it could have been, hence the penalty. For reasons which they do not make clear, they somehow changed the criteria for their findings. I am baffled by the logic they used regarding the previously known allegations but given the disclosure of the emails they really had no choice but to act. I would have been happier had the conclusions been limited solely to the fact that discussions between the team and Stepney were more broad-based than previously reported and left the issue of whether technology found its way to the car alone. Had they done so, they would not have opened the sport up to further allegations regarding other teams, such as the Renault/McLaren debacle about to ensue. Establishing a precedent where suppositions are sufficient cause for a finding of guilt is going to open the entire issue of hiring of team personnel by other competitors and create a cascade of complaints.

The bottom line is that the loser in all of this is Formula 1 as a sport. My feeling is that if the team is going to be punished, then the drivers should have had their points stripped as well. The FIA did not do so because that would have been the death knell for TV viewership and for the sponsors this season, their lifeblood. Instead they hit the team where it hurts, with a big fine and the loss of the WCC points (which no one but the teams care for anyway). Given their findings, failing to strip the drivers of their points erodes the significance of their decision in my view, this weak attempt at a decision which preserves the series commercial position only degrades their credibility as a sporting council.

 

You are speaking in terms of ethical responsibility, not in terms of legal liability. If this logic is applied, then no team could ever be found guilty of Article 151(c) nor could any employer be found liable for the illegal actions of an employee.