As I said this sort of stuff happens all the time ...

Huh?

Yes, nothing justifies it, but it sounds like you are saying the access to the data made the McLaren as quick as it was. I dont think theres really anyon who is saying that - I think everyone agrees the McLaren would have been faster no matter what, and that the data has not affected the points situation. There is no evidence to the contrary and people are not convicted based on assumptions on what we think they probably did.

 

McLaren was convicted on conversations between one of their employees and one of Ferrari's employees. That is absolutely laughably thin.

 

That never happened I guess: http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070910112408.shtml

 

Yes that's excactly what I'm saying and that's what the FIA said :

" 5.3 The WMSC does not have evidence that any complete Ferrari design was copied
and subsequently wholly incorporated into the McLaren car as a result of
Coughlan passing confidential from Stepney to McLaren. However, it is difficult
to accept that the secret Ferrari information that was within Coughlan’s
knowledge never influenced his judgement in the performance of his duties. It is
not necessary for McLaren to have copied a complete Ferrari design for it to have
benefited from Coughlan’s knowledge. For example, the secret Ferrari
information cannot but have informed the views Coughlan expressed to others in
the McLaren design department, for example regarding which design projects to
prioritise or which research to pursue. The advantage gained may have been as
subtle as Coughlan being in a position to suggest alternative ways of approaching
different design challenges."

7.1 The WMSC believes that the nature of the information illicitly held by McLaren
was information of a nature which, if used or in any way taken into account, could
confer a significant sporting advantage upon McLaren.

7.2 Evidence was submitted at the 13 September WMSC meeting by McLaren’s
Engineering Director, Mr. Lowe, that the dossier of Ferrari information found in
Coughlan’s possession did not contain information of particular use or interest to
McLaren on the basis that the McLaren car was significantly different to the
Ferrari car. This submission was apparently made on the basis of the review of
the index to the dossier of Ferrari documents (Mr. Lowe having stated that he had
not seen the dossier itself).

7.3 The WMSC does not accept this account. In both WMSC hearings and in written
submissions, and from the direct knowledge of the WMSC Members, Formula
One teams have great interest in each others’ technology and go to considerable
lengths (within the rules) to study each other’s designs and innovations through
direct observation, photographic evidence and other means. In addition the
technical information in Coughlan’s possession was, in the WMSC’s
appreciation, highly significant and could certainly confer a sporting advantage, if
used or taken into account.

8.4 McLaren has made detailed submissions indicating that none of the information
received enhanced the McLaren car. McLaren has suggested to the WMSC that
unless “actual use” and a demonstrated and itemised performance advantage can
be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. to a criminal law standard of proof), the
WMSC is not permitted at law to impose a penalty.
8.5 The WMSC rejects this suggestion. The WMSC has full jurisdiction to apply
Article 151(c) and stresses that it is not necessary for it to demonstrate that any
confidential Ferrari information was directly copied by McLaren or put to direct
use in the McLaren car to justify a finding that Article 151(c) was breached and/or
that a penalty is merited. Nor does the WMSC need to show that any information
improperly held led to any specifically identified sporting advantage, or indeed
any advantage at all. Rather, the WMSC is entitled to treat possession of another
team’s information as an offence meriting a penalty on its own if it so chooses."

In Melbourne Ferrari was 1 second a lap quicker that Mclaren. Alonso even said that in his email to PDL .The next race in Malaysia Alonso was 1 second a lap quicker than the Ferraris in his first and second stints. No Mclaren would not have been that much faster without the input of Coughlin, FA and PDL. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

That is from conversations though. That happens all the time. That isn't from the passing of the technical dossier.

 

Translation: We think Coughlan may have been influenced by the Ferrari information and may have done things differently than he otherwise would because we had the infromation. We dont know about anything specifically that he did or didnt do based on the Ferrari info but we presume there was something.

Translation: We dont know that they used the information, but if they did it could have made a big difference

Translation: The McLaren technical guy looked at the index to the secret data and said it wasn't going to help because the Ferrari is so different to the McLaren

Translation: We have no information that its not true, we just dont think its true

Translation: McLaren says they didnt use the information and can't be penalized for using it when they didnt

Translation: We dont care if you used the info or not, you still had it and that's enough for us

This one is the dumbest and most appalling part of the whole thing. The FIA is saying that if you HAVE IP of another team, its the same as using it. I would venture a guess that every team has *some* proprietary info on another.

How the above leads to your conclusion is a mystery to me. If things were done that would contribute 1 second a lap (that is an absolutely GIGANTIC difference in lap times, by the way), it would be patently obvious that they were done.

There is no proof that the info that was obtained on the Ferrari had any effect on any part of the McLaren. It appears Pedro DLR *tried* to use it in the simulator and failed, and the team investigated using some new type of tire filling which they ultimately passed on using. Nothing that would make up for 1 second a lap. And the McLarens were faster than the Ferraris before this info came to light.

Alonso looks the worst in all of this. Its been suggested that the only reason Ron Dennis went to Mosley and told about the emails is because Alonso was threatening to do that anyway. First, thats speculation, but even if it is true (and it may well be), Ron still did the right thing. Surely he could have appeased Alonso and kept the whole thing under wraps. This was Ron's first exposure to the information and I still think it says something that he went right to the FIA. I have little doubt he could have appeased Alonso and kept it quiet.

 

flexible wing and aero balance
3.12 In the same e-mail exchange of 25 March 2007, Mr. de la Rosa states that tests
had been carried out on a flexible rear wing which Mr. de la Rosa says is “a copy
of the system we think Ferrari uses”. The Ferrari car’s precise aero balance at 250
kph is also identified. While it is conceivable that the former item could have
been copied from observation of the Ferrari car, it is clear from the context of the
exchange (it being part of the information that Mr. de la Rosa describes as being
“very reliable” because it comes from Stepney) that the latter item is confidential
to Ferrari and that it was passed to Mr. de la Rosa by Coughlan,

Obviously they were using their "conversations" in conjunction with what was in the technical dossier.

You cant model or make a rear wing from a conversation at this level!

 

No this is from passing information from Stapney with drawings about the Ferrari flex board (which was illegal according to the FIA) and from having information about the Ferrari weight distribution,tire preussure gas, braking system,rear wing AND the big one pit strategy.

If that's not an unfair advantage I don't know what is.
It's is true that RD only knew about these emails on the morning of the Hungary race after FA demanded that LH be made No2. Last time I checked FA,PDR and Mike Coughlin are still McLaren employees. Some of the Mclaren suppoters are still in denial.

 

SRT mike your english is different than mine. Maybe you're one of those people who are still in denial.

 

+1

The evidence is damning, no matter how you spin it. The red-car weight distribution setups that de La Rosa wanted to test in the simulator, the knowledge of when Kimi would first pit, and everything else that no one could of known outside the Ferrari garage is enough grounds to ban them for the season. And then the lying to the FIA in July insisting the illicit information hadn't spread to anyone else inside McL besides Coughlan? Even the 2xWDC had his hands dirty!

As I said before, they got off easy. It's a joke McL cars are allowed on track this weekend.

 

Some people will still be in denial even after all this. Why do they think Mclaren was fined $100m , for conversations. Gimme a break.

According to Bernie the only reason the FIA didn't exclude Mclaren for 07 and 08 was because they didn't want them to go out of business. They got off way too easy.

 

I think they wanted to use "this" to punish Stepney for betraying their confidence. Remember, the race championship race was closer and Ferrari weren't plagued by reliability issues when all of this started.

I do agree and have maintained that this type of stuff shouldn't be shocking. Any for-profit organization is going to look into ways of gaining the upper hand on its key competitors. I think the punishment was just, simply from the standpoint that the FIA had to draw a line for precedence and consistency. The drivers shouldn't have lost points and they didn't (although some will argue that Alonso should have, it seems De la Pink was the guy aggressively pursuing info and Alonso was just the recipient of his intelligence).

 

Is that information from the technical dossier? No. That is, and has always been, the big issue on this board and with the FIA. In reality, that is not the issue at all. It's from conversation, and I contend, that this is much more common than people think.

 

No one employee has the entire recipe for Coca Cola, yet this stooge of a employee can walk around with so much data from Ferrari? That plainly says Ferrari as a business is run by morons as evidenced that Luca is proud of cheating his way thru college and copying others work. Admitting this to a college graduating class. The Speed Channel TV commentators had a good laugh at Ferrari over that.

The stooge should receive his bonus for giving Ferrari a WC , because the team sure couldn't do it on the track. Only Dr. Theissen at BMW has shown any class by saying his team is 3rd on the track not second because of the Ferrari International Assistance (FIA).

Walk proud Ferrari, another Indy.

 

Mclaren used Ferrari data in at least 4 important sectors:aerodynamics,chassis,brakes and tyres.Everyone who has read FIA's report would understand what am i saying.Yet the are Mclaren fans who are trying to justify the unjustifiables.They say Mclaren would still be faster than ferrari even wthout using the data.. How can they know that???That defines common sense!In the emails De la Rosa makes clear that Ferrari were ahead in tyre management,brakes and even chassis that's why he was requesting aditional information.So your first assumption doesn't stand.
But is more disturbing is the other excuse.Well Stepney came to us(Mclaren) we didnt' steal something.. For crying out loud you think like a 5 year old child.Think mature and you'll all understand that it makes no difference wether or not you stole or were given the information,the fact remains that YOU EXCEPTED IT,YOU REPEATEDLY USED IT AND YOU TRIED TO HIDE IT.
AND THE THING THAT ANNOYS ME THE MOST IS THAT YOUR BOSS (RON) IS TRYING TO CONVICE US FOR HIS MORALITY...

 

No, just someone who can still think clearly despite who is involved.

There is zero proof that the Ferrari data contributed to a faster McLaren. The FIA has not said it, Ferrari has not claimed it, and it was not the basis of the decision. The decision was based on more people than Coughlan having knowledge of the info (specifically DLR who passed along some to Alonso).

There is a whole lot of "we assume" and "it seems that" and "we dont believe that". Those are pretty vague words to be doling out hugely hurtful penalties over. Especially when others have done much worse and suffered no repercussions at all.

 

So let me guess - the FIA is anti-Ferrari right? Is that why McLaren is going to win the WDC? What Toyota did is much worse but they got off scot free. Much worse than what happened at McLaren happens in F1 on a daily basis. You guys want McLaren tossed out forever because they are the only team over the last 10 years who seriously mounted challenges to Ferrari, and because they are beating Ferrari this year, and because Ron comes across as cold and unemotional in his wins, which just bugs people.

The running joke a few years back was that the Toyota looked exactly like the previous Ferrari! And we learn that Toyota had access to "tens of thousands of pages" of Ferrari confidential information. There was just as much outrage on this board, right? Oh wait there wasnt. Well at least there was from the FIA! Oh, wait, there wasnt. Well at least Toyota was banned from F1 for 2 years, right? How about 2 races? How about a 100mm fine? OK how about a 1mm fine? A $10 fine? Any fine????

Yep, McLaren did wrong, got caught, and have paid a heavy price. Those who think they should have been banned for 2 years are just buying into Mosley's hatred of Ron. The McLaren is quicker because its a better engineered car that has been faster and more reliable all season. Its not because Ferrari info was used to design/develop it which then made it quick. To think so is just making excuses for Ferraris piss-poor performance this year relative to what they are capable of.

 

Like I said before, the FIA was put into a position to penalize McLaren because of the very public nature of this issue. Had they done nothing, it would have come across as 'it's okay to cheat' (which, of course, it IS as long as you don't get caught...universal rule of sports and business). The fine doesn't make much sense, other than the fact that McLaren is just giving back some of what they've won. And it gave the FIA a means to look like they were hitting Mac big without excluding them from 2008 (which would have been a travesty).

I think the Speed guys are teeing off on Ferrari because Ferrari has made a big issue out of something that is considered an (unwritten) normal part of F1. I think the whole thing was personal and directed towards Stepney originally, then McLaren stepped into the bulls eye because R.D. suggested "peace talks" with Ferrari with the knowledge they were getting Ferrari info through Stepney (with RD thinking JT was unaware).

As ironic as it sounds, I believe this is more about "honor" (lol) than "cheating". I don't believe any for-profit sports series is devoid of elements which we believe make it "dirty". That includes gambling influences, spying (as we've seen with the NFL's Patriots), game/match fixing, etc.

 

And now look where their cars are in the pack, same as McLaren was a year ago. The disadvantage of using old data instead of some creative engineering.

 

Good point one I have been implying for ages its a fast moving sport so much so as soon as the data was nicked it becomes old hat..What a price to pay though!!

 

You gotta be kidding Mike raises some of the best points I have ever read.

And believe me I only have to go in my garage to look at the red beast in there to no where my loyalty lies..

 

doesn't seem to be any anit-Ferrari or anti-McLaren at the track today - large group of guys in front of us at Pouhon applauded for Kimi when he took pole today - I didn't know what to expect there today

Carol

 

Have a good one Carol nice to hear from you at track side

Steve

 

I wasn't going to get into this again today but here it goes:

You,me, SRTmike and the FIA don't know to what extent Coughlin, FA and PDR used the information contained in Stepney's emails.

Mclaren claims that they didn't use the information but no one knows the truth. Even Ron himself didn’t know about the emails until the Sunday of the Hungarian GP. He went before the FIA in July and looked Max Mosley in the eye and told him there wasn’t anything more than the original 780page dossier. He told the whole world that Coughlin had it because he and Stepney where going to Honda .

It would be gullible and naive on anyone’s part to say that Mclaren had the faster car and they did not need this information to make their car faster. Notice I said faster and not fast. We all know that every team starts designing their cars a year in advance. Coughlin could’ve and should’ve improvised on his race car to apply the knowledge gained from the emails and the drawings. That’s his job .
No one knows by how much heand the GANG made the car faster . It could have been two or three tenths from the braking system,two or three tenth from the wing, two or three tenths from the tires etc.

BTW I don't believe Mike Coughlin for one second when he says he only looked at the 780 page dossier for two hours. . If Mclaren was faster why did Alonso tell PDR to find out the weight distribution of the Ferrari car from Coughlin because they were on a different planet?

The FIA punished Mclaren not because Mosley had a hard on for RD and not for political reasons but they were punished because it would have been unfair to Ferrari ,BMW ,Renault and the others not to do so . They were also punished to set an example so no one else will do it in the future . They got off way too lightly BTW .

For anyone to equate what Mclaren did to what we know happens in F-1 is quite appalling. Spying on your rival through "normal" means like photography, sound recordings and eves dropping on their conversations is normal and everyteam does it but to accept the 780 page dossier, 323 text messages ,the extra sketches and the pit strategy from Stepney and to try test it to see if it works is not the same thing. That is plain cheating . I wouldn’t go as far as saying that RD is a cheater but his team members certainly are .
I have been a Ferrari fan for over 30 years and have seen them lose many championships due to their own incompetence but this one will hurt the most.

Enjoy your Ferrari in good health.

Cheers

 

cantsleepnk, read this link http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12433_2731797,00.html, it was posted in another thread. It shows a lot of interaction between Cauglan and Stepney which supports your post.

It was only when I got the list from the Italian police [showing] 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between [suspended McLaren designer Mike] Coughlan and [former Ferrari engineer Nigel] Stepney, [that I concluded] there had to be more to this.


"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious.