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Artcurial Auction Le Mans Classic 2016

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by Ferrari 308 Vetro, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,619
    Disagree. My comment is about the Ferrari market in general (after all this is fchat here) and it is not directly related to the Artcurial auction at Le Mans last weekend, but rather to all auctions in 2016 so far (where Ferraris were offered).

    Marcel Massini
     
  2. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    888
    Looking at the numbers of modern Bentleys and Ferraris and even Lambo in the camping (��)at Le Mans, there was plenty of money around. Of course no one that want a car need to rush, this is a buyers market today. Second , prices have to be in accordance with buyers estimate, and we will see if , like the Midy car, this one sells after negotiations . I believe so, this is a good car, and the owner has an interest ( so long he still owns it....working on tax treatment of capital gains seem to me more important than the real price he may reach...).
    Finally , one specific thing at Le Mans, all the big money and egos ( as shown by number of crashes) are on the piste at the time of the auction, it is impossible to race and bid. Of course people can give bids to others, but this is part of fun lost.
     
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    13,619
    Absolutely agree.

    Marcel Massini
     
  4. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,088
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    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    I agree with Marcel. I would go further and say that this market is undergoing foundational changes. The Monterey/ Pebble Beach week is only 5 weeks away and will be fascinating with the key dynamic being moderate reserve(s).
     
  5. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,747
    Totally agree!

    Too many auctions and all sell almost the same cars and most of this cars are in average condition (particuly cars from France, Belgium...).

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  6. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
    3,557
    São Paulo, Brazil
    Full Name:
    Mario
  7. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    2,864
    FRANCE
    That's one of the worst thing that I ever saw. Ridiculous. Poor guys.
     
  8. furoni

    furoni F1 Veteran

    Jun 6, 2011
    9,585
    Vila Verde
    Full Name:
    Pedro Braga Soares
    At least it's a comp version!! :)
     
  9. amenasce

    amenasce Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 17, 2001
    27,189
    Paris / Chicago
    Full Name:
    Andrew Menasce
    The estimate for the Artcurial were really high. E800k-1.2m for an Aston v8 xpack???

    Give me a break. They did really bad. It's as fun to watch cars not sell as it is to see them go up to crazy prices.
     
  10. Ferrari 308 Vetro

    Ferrari 308 Vetro F1 Rookie
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 12, 2012
    4,389
    Austria
    And dont forget please, 20 % comission...
     
  11. msn

    msn Formula Junior

    Jan 22, 2011
    250
    #36 msn, Jul 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Its interesting to see where people see the cost price, the currency that they originally purchased the car in or another barometer, it's very hard to determine, especially in the high value cars, 6 months ago GBP/ EURO was 142, today 117 a drop of nearly 20 %.
    If on top of that people are saying cars have adjusted, lets say 20 % does that mean the cars priced in Euro's and USD need to be adjusted down 40 % or do the cars in the uk need to increase 20 %.. its not rocket science to understand why the auctions are not performing when one of the biggest collector markets the UK has seen 20 % reduction in its buying power through the depreciation of GBP.
    I personally feel the same will happen at Pebble beach as a large part go the collector market will not be present and buying.
    If GBP carriers on the path it seems to be going something will have to give.
    Would really appreciate some feedback
     
  12. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,088
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    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    Full results dudes..... A bit of a blood bath.

    1984 Autobianchi A112 Abarth Série 7 - No reserve
    Estimation: 8,000 - 12,000 €
    Sold for 5,960 €
    1988 Porsche 928 S4 - No reserve
    Estimation: 20,000 - 30,000 €
    Sold for 36,952 €
    1955 MG TF 1500 - No reserve
    Estimation: 35,000 - 55,000 €
    Sold for 47,680 €
    1987 BMW M635 CSI - No reserve
    Estimation: 35,000 - 45,000 €
    Sold for 47,680 €
    1997 Maserati Ghibli Cup -
    Estimation: 35,000 - 45,000 €
    Unsold
    1984 Ferrari 308 GTS Quattrovalvole -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Sold for 67,944 €
    1973 Porsche 911 2,4 L S -
    Estimation: 100,000 - 140,000 €
    Unsold
    1991 Porsche 965 Turbo -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1973 Porsche 911 Carrera 2,7 L RS Touring (M472) -
    Estimation: 420,000 - 580,000 €
    Sold for 476,800 €
    1961 Porsche 356 B T5 1600 - No reserve
    Estimation: 50,000 - 70,000 €
    Sold for 58,408 €
    1954 Triumph TR2 - No reserve
    Estimation: 30,000 - 40,000 €
    Sold for 25,032 €
    1950 Allard K2 -
    Estimation: 80,000 - 120,000 €
    Sold for 89,400 €
    1954 Chevrolet Corvette C1 "Blue Flame" -
    Estimation: 80,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1966 Chevrolet Corvette préparée Grand Sport - No reserve
    Estimation: 60,000 - 100,000 €
    Sold for 92,976 €
    1977 Ferrari 308 GTB Vetroresina -
    Estimation: 155,000 - 195,000 €
    Sold for 153,768 €
    1996 Ferrari 512 M -
    Estimation: 220,000 - 260,000 €
    Unsold
    1972 Dino 246 GT -
    Estimation: 220,000 - 280,000 €
    Unsold
    1961 Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta SWB -
    Estimation: - €
    Unsold
    1977 Volkswagen Coccinelle 1303 LS cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 15,000 - 20,000 €
    Sold for 19,072 €
    1959 Mercedes-Benz 220 S Cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Sold for 101,320 €
    1937 Citroën Traction 11 BL Cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 70,000 - 90,000 €
    Sold for 113,240 €
    1940 BMW 327 Cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 120,000 - 160,000 €
    Sold for 184,760 €
    1936 Riley Sprite Sports -
    Estimation: 200,000 - 300,000 €
    Unsold
    1949 Delahaye 135 M cabriolet Guilloré -
    Estimation: 100,000 - 200,000 €
    Sold for 107,280 €
    1937 Bugatti Type 57 Ventoux coach usine -
    Estimation: 250,000 - 350,000 €
    Sold for 524,480 €
    1947 Delage 3L Biplace Compétition Usine -
    Estimation: 1,200,000 - 1,400,000 €
    Unsold
    1957 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Ti Série 1 - No reserve
    Estimation: 25,000 - 35,000 €
    Sold for 26,224 €
    1959 Alfa Romeo Giulietta spider Veloce -
    Estimation: 50,000 - 60,000 €
    Unsold
    1964 Alfa Romeo Giulia 1600 SS -
    Estimation: 100,000 - 150,000 €
    Sold for 119,200 €
    1988 MVS Venturi Cup 221 - No reserve
    Estimation: 25,000 - 35,000 €
    Sold for 30,992 €
    1993 Lancia Delta Integrale Evo 2 - No reserve
    Estimation: 40,000 - 60,000 €
    Sold for 51,256 €
    1984 Lancia Delta S4 prototype -
    Estimation: 300,000 - 400,000 €
    Unsold
    1984 Lancia 037 Gr. B Usine Evolution 2 -
    Estimation: 450,000 - 650,000 €
    Unsold
    1976 Ferrari 308 GT4 -
    Estimation: 55,000 - 65,000 €
    Unsold
    1996 Ferrari 355 GTS -
    Estimation: 55,000 - 75,000 €
    Sold for 66,752 €
    2003 Ferrari 575M Maranello -
    Estimation: 175,000 - 225,000 €
    Unsold
    2001 Ferrari 360 Spider F1 -
    Estimation: 125,000 - 150,000 €
    Sold for 130,047 €
    1979 Ferrari 308 GTS -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 110,000 €
    Unsold
    1974 Fiat 500 découvrable "édition finale" - No reserve
    Estimation: 15,000 - 20,000 €
    Sold for 15,496 €
    1963 Lancia Flaminia GT Touring 2,5 L 3C - No reserve
    Estimation: 40,000 - 70,000 €
    Sold for 38,144 €
    1969 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2 -
    Estimation: 240,000 - 280,000 €
    Unsold
    1973 De Tomaso Pantera GTS -
    Estimation: 75,000 - 95,000 €
    Sold for 88,208 €
    1966 McLaren M1B -
    Estimation: 200,000 - 260,000 €
    Sold for 216,944 €
    1971 Ferrari 365 GTC/4 -
    Estimation: 425,000 - 475,000 €
    Unsold
    1970 Alpine A110 1600 S -
    Estimation: 80,000 - 120,000 €
    Sold for 95,360 €
    1982 Renault 5 Turbo 1 -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 110,000 €
    Sold for 104,896 €
    1963 Citroën 2 CV Sahara -
    Estimation: 70,000 - 90,000 €
    Sold for 79,864 €
    1962 CD Panhard coach -
    Estimation: 85,000 - 125,000 €
    Unsold
    1958 Talbot T14 LS Coupé -
    Estimation: 200,000 - 250,000 €
    Sold for 220,520 €
    1949 Delahaye 148 L Berlinette par Antem -
    Estimation: 200,000 - 280,000 €
    Sold for 250,320 €
    1972 BSH Guiry - No reserve
    Estimation: 25,000 - 45,000 €
    Sold for 38,144 €
    1976 Peugeot 504 V6 Cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 30,000 - 40,000 €
    Sold for 35,760 €
    1978 Peugeot J7 Camping-Car par Holidaycar - No reserve
    Estimation: 10,000 - 20,000 €
    Sold for 21,456 €
    1993 Bentley Continental R - No reserve
    Estimation: 35,000 - 45,000 €
    Sold for 42,912 €
    1976 Rolls-Royce Camargue - No reserve
    Estimation: 40,000 - 50,000 €
    Sold for 45,892 €
    1971 Jaguar Type C Replica par Heritage -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 100,000 €
    Sold for 59,600 €
    1950 Jaguar XK120 roadster -
    Estimation: 120,000 - 160,000 €
    Sold for 121,584 €
    1958 Jaguar XK 150 S 3.4L Roadster -
    Estimation: 155,000 - 185,000 €
    Unsold
    1963 Bentley Continental S3 cabriolet -
    Estimation: 150,000 - 200,000 €
    Sold for 202,640 €
    1980 Aston Martin V8 Volante -
    Estimation: 95,000 - 125,000 €
    Sold for 101,320 €
    1977 Aston Martin AMV8 Série 3 Stage 1 -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Sold for 91,784 €
    1958 Aston Martin DB 2/4 MKIII -
    Estimation: 310,000 - 350,000 €
    Unsold
    1971 Mercedes-Benz 280 SE 3,5L Cabriolet -
    Estimation: 150,000 - 230,000 €
    Sold for 166,880 €
    1961 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Roadster avec Hard Top -
    Estimation: 700,000 - 1,100,000 €
    Sold for 953,600 €
    1988 Aston Martin V8 Vantage Volante X-Pack -
    Estimation: 800,000 - 1,200,000 €
    Unsold
    1967 Ferrari 330 GTS Spider Pininfarina -
    Estimation: 1,700,000 - 1,900,000 €
    Unsold
    1962 Ford Thunderbird Coupé Hardtop - No reserve
    Estimation: 15,000 - 20,000 €
    Sold for 17,880 €
    1968 Cadillac 472 Eldorado Fleetwood Coupe - No reserve
    Estimation: 14,000 - 18,000 €
    Sold for 19,140 €
    1980 Arntz Shelby Cobra 427 Replica - No reserve
    Estimation: 45,000 - 65,000 €
    Sold for 53,640 €
    1973 Rolls Royce Corniche cabriolet - No reserve
    Estimation: 40,000 - 60,000 €
    Sold for 42,912 €
    1941 Buick Super Eight Convertible Type 151 C -
    Estimation: 70,000 - 110,000 €
    Unsold
    1987 Porsche 911 3,2 L Jubilé -
    Estimation: 65,000 - 95,000 €
    Unsold
    2004 Porsche 996 GT3 Phase 2 -
    Estimation: 75,000 - 95,000 €
    Unsold
    1984 Porsche 930 Turbo 3.3 L -
    Estimation: 85,000 - 125,000 €
    Sold for 89,400 €
    1977 Porsche 935 Compétition Client d'Usine -
    Estimation: 1,100,000 - 1,500,000 €
    Sold for 1,301,600 €
    1993 Porsche 965 Turbo 3,6 L -
    Estimation: 180,000 - 230,000 €
    Unsold
    1995 Porsche 964 RS N-GT coupé -
    Estimation: 260,000 - 340,000 €
    Unsold
    1977 Porsche Carrera 3,0L préparée RSR -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 110,000 €
    Unsold
    1976 Martini MK 19 - F2 - Ex Patrick Tambay -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Unsold
    1994 Dodge Viper RT-10 - 24 Heures du Mans 1994 -
    Estimation: 200,000 - 300,000 €
    Sold for 214,560 €
    1976 Fiat 131 Abarth Rally Gr.4 ex-Ciro Nappi -
    Estimation: 180,000 - 220,000 €
    Unsold
    2000 Porsche 996 GT3 R -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1977 Porsche 930 Turbo 3 L -
    Estimation: 140,000 - 180,000 €
    Sold for 127,600 €
    1973 Martini MK11 Formule Renault No reserve
    Estimation: - €
    Unsold
    1981 Opel Ascona 2000 Gr. 2 coach (ex Destefanis) - No reserve
    Estimation: 35,000 - 45,000 €
    Sold for 29,800 €
    1972 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV -
    Estimation: 42,000 - 48,000 €
    Sold for 47,680 €
    1992 Lancia Delta Evo 1 Martini 5 -
    Estimation: 85,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1966 Lotus 47 GT Gr. 4 -
    Estimation: 125,000 - 165,000 €
    Unsold
    1963 Porsche 356 B coupé modifié compétition -
    Estimation: 65,000 - 95,000 €
    Sold for 73,904 €
    1956 Porsche 356 A Coupé -
    Estimation: 75,000 - 115,000 €
    Sold for 83,440 €
    1969 Porsche 911 T -
    Estimation: 90,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1965 Lancia Flaminia Touring GTL 2,8L 3C -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Sold for 89,400 €
    1953 Bandini 750 Sport Bialbero -
    Estimation: 375,000 - 425,000 €
    Unsold
    1959 Fiat Abarth 750 Allemano spider -
    Estimation: 75,000 - 95,000 €
    Unsold
    1963 Alfa Romeo 2600 Spider Touring -
    Estimation: 80,000 - 120,000 €
    Sold for 126,352 €
    1970 Maserati Mexico 4.2 L -
    Estimation: 85,000 - 120,000 €
    Unsold
    1958 Fiat 600 Multipla 4/5 places - No reserve
    Estimation: 14,000 - 20,000 €
    Sold for 23,840 €
    1975 Maserati Khamsin -
    Estimation: 180,000 - 240,000 €
    Unsold
    1963 Maserati 3500 GT -
    Estimation: 240,000 - 280,000 €
    Sold for 268,200 €
    1987 Ferrari Testarossa Spider conversion par Lorenz & Rankl -
    Estimation: 170,000 - 230,000 €
    Unsold
    1974 Ferrari 365 GT4 / BB -
    Estimation: 350,000 - 400,000 €
    Unsold
    1957 Mercedes-Benz 190 SL -
    Estimation: 100,000 - 130,000 €
    Sold for 101,320 €
    1979 Mercedes-Benz 280 SL avec hard-top -
    Estimation: 30,000 - 50,000 €
    Sold for 42,912 €
    1970 Mercedes-Benz 280 SL avec hard-top -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Sold for 65,560 €
    1960 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider Veloce -
    Estimation: 80,000 - 120,000 €
    Sold for 115,624 €
    1986 Ferrari 412 -
    Estimation: 65,000 - 85,000 €
    Sold for 59,600 €
    1987 Ferrari 328 GTB -
    Estimation: 75,000 - 95,000 €
    Sold for 89,400 €
    1979 Ferrari 512 BB -
    Estimation: 240,000 - 280,000 €
    Unsold
    1990 Ferrari F40 -
    Estimation: 1,100,000 - 1,300,000 €
    Unsold
    2006 Ford GT Heritage -
    Estimation: 400,000 - 450,000 €
    Unsold
    1976 Rolls-Royce Corniche Cabriolet Série 1 - No reserve
    Estimation: 35,000 - 45,000 €
    Sold for 53,640 €
    1958 MGA roadster - No reserve
    Estimation: 20,000 - 30,000 €
    Sold for 38,144 €
    1973 Lancia Fulvia HF Group 4 -
    Estimation: 150,000 - 180,000 €
    Unsold
    1973 De Tomaso Pantera modifiée GT5S -
    Estimation: 65,000 - 85,000 €
    Sold for 66,752 €
    1980 Talbot Sunbeam Lotus -
    Estimation: 60,000 - 80,000 €
    Unsold
     
  13. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 5, 2010
    2,088
    NZ
    Full Name:
    Timothy Russell
    The current market trends that are either a slow down or worse truly began in November last year with Keno New York & RM London and vendors are still hoping for pre-2015 prices. Yes there are some sectors that are still going gangbusters but many of the Ferrari's offered need to 20 - 30% or more off there 2014 prices. As a useful example the SWB offered by Artcurial should after 47 years of ownership have been debt free but plenty of big dollar Ferrari's have no doubt been purchased with part or full financing and require constant value increases to break even let alone make a profit. I believe in Walter's comments that there are too many auctions offering too many star lots and not nearly enough motivated vendors and the SWB seller clearly wasn't motivated enough to let it go at the high bid. Whatever affects the new post Brexit value of the sterling and dollar are secondary to this new market paradigm.
     
  14. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    888
    And even some of the cars that sold were not that good. I had not too much time as I was racing on 4 grids,,,but I looked at the Alfa Romeo giulietta Spyder veloce that sold for 115k euros,,I had one fully restored by QC few years ago after owning it for 30 years so I know pretty well those cars,,,gaps were uneven, with hood protruding, none of the instruments were redone and were fully de colored , so I am sure same shortcuts were applied to the rest..means this car will need another restoration,,but only concours car for those who have never been to a concours...this is sad because people who are burnt are lost forever for the collecting market.
     
  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,747
    Pierre,

    thats what I said: too bad or average quality is in the market this days.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  16. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    7,747
    You have a PM.

    Ciao!
    Walter
     
  17. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

    Jul 13, 2010
    1,720
    Amsterdam
    I believe there is too much negativity here. When I look at the LM auction results, the only diminished interest I see is in sports cars and perhaps rallye versions. I think that could be due to the kind of venue, but ok the bears amongst us can have that. The other categories are doing well to very well so it seems.
    Fortunately a bull market actually needs bearish analysis to continue to be bullish. :D
     
  18. energy88

    energy88 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2012
    11,360
    Fredericksburg, VA & Sarasota, FL
    Full Name:
    John
    Agree. There is an old Wall Street saying that "a bull market climbs a wall of worry."
     
  19. Candide

    Candide Formula 3

    Apr 6, 2017
    1,422
    Monaco
    To go back to the suject of this topic, this particular chassis that I know very well, sold for a very high price.

    So, when I read people saying the market is lowering...

    The market is only adjusting cause there are too many average cars for sale at the price of Concours cond. cars.

    In Europe, we are in need of Concours cond. cars.

    And there are 2 main markets ! Concours cond. cars w/ quite no price, and up to restore cars.

    between ?

    Quite nothing that sells, the desert.

    Cause sometimes, it costs the same to restore completely a car than to make Concours a very good one.

    As regards this particular chassis, at that price, the seller lost money.

    He came from a very "sane " car...
     

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