Arrangement with dealership: When will Ferrari stop making 812 Superfast? | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Arrangement with dealership: When will Ferrari stop making 812 Superfast?

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by gowthamn, Jan 20, 2020.

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  1. KenU

    KenU Formula Junior

    Oct 14, 2004
    543
    Planet Earth
    Full Name:
    Ken
    ... and if you do, I’m sure it’ll totally be worth it! Unfortunately, that’s the price of admission. Enjoy your new 812!
     
  2. gowthamn

    gowthamn Karting

    Jan 21, 2019
    182
    I have decided to go for a new 812SF with Tailor Made. Allocation and Tailor Made appointment is confirmed.
     
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  3. ANOpax

    ANOpax Formula 3

    Jul 1, 2015
    1,124
    The Netherlands
    Wow. Good for you. Make it a special one.
     
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  4. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
     
  5. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    248
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco
    Obviously my source is qualified , they are not rumors . I can add now the project for the new model has been stopped for 9 months due to Coronavirus lock down and post lock down . This is a verified new and I suppose on that 812 will have a longer life than supposed
     
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  6. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    So that means the 812SF will be produced until mid 2023 now given its delayed by 9 months? Would you be able also to share your view on production number of the SF if it’s going to be produced for so long ? And how many you think are likely to be produced while the GTS is in production.. that would be meaningful information for us all here I guess..
     
  7. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    248
    Full Name:
    Gianfranco
    I think they planned to present a new model beginning of 2022 with start of delivery end 2022 beginning of 2023. This was the plan . According to actual decisions it should have a 9 months delay . But it is the market that has the final word . My feeling is dealers have a certain number of 812 already allocated by the factory but they struggle to get a final customer . I was trying to get a deal for a 812sf last September but they were asking for a 12-14 months delivery . I signed a contract beginning of November with a promised delivery June 2020 and it has been completed early March and even if with lock down it is arrived at the dealer today . I can read over here some customers ordered it in December or January and they have it already . Waiting 3-4 months is just the time required by the factory to get specifications before starting the production . That’s why my feeling dealers are struggling to sell a new 812 even worse now with the new economical situation after lock down . All that said it is difficult to answer to your question how many 812 sf , 812 GTS will be produced . It will depend on the request . I heard for a new GTS they were asking for many clauses in order to have an allocation before and they are not asking for any more now .
     
  8. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    Thank you yes this my feeling as well. My view is that and I agree with you they will struggle to find demand ( buyers) for so many 812SF until mid 2022, especially because with covid19 delivery times are likely to be delayed further and clients losing interest when used cars are available at a discount from dealers, let alone people who will not be willing to spend on a new car and lose on delrec. Add to that from this year onwards GPF filter on 812SF is likely to also reduce demand. As a result i think they shorten the cycle on the SF/ naturally reduce production and concentrate on the GTS where they may instead increase production ( revised engine with gpf filter) and loosen their criteria for getting one since the GTS as a result of that 9 month delay will be produced for a longer period.so while the SF may be officially in production it could well be the case that not so many end end being produced from now on. Finally they will need space for the 812VS if one is to be made. This is just my logical thinking
     
  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,738
    Once the 812 SF production is completed/finished they will continue with the 812 GTS and thereafter with the 812 VS/GTO (or whatever the name will be).
    Right now you can still order an 812 SF.

    Marcel Massini
     
  10. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2004
    6,707
    Cape Town,SA
    Full Name:
    Jacques
    Interesting that they wont make 812 SF and GTS concurrently.
     
  11. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    I think that’s what I mea
    is it therefore right to assume that no GPF are likely to be fitted on the SF and rather kept for use on the GTS Marcel?
     
  12. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    812SF already being produced with GPF:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147160917/

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147127346/

    Ferrari "destroyed" demand for 812SF with introduction of SF90 (this is not conjecture but observable reality), From May 2019 forward, 812SF orders evaporated. This is why 812SF product is 3-4 months from order to delivery(pre C19 shutdown due to supply chain interruptions).

    Even if 812SF production continues through 2022, there will not be that many additional orders unless the SF90 is withdrawn (which is not going to occur).

    So, Ferrari destroyed 812SF demand with the SF90 and I presume the SF90 spider will equally destroy 812GTS demand (which is not particularly strong on pre-orders).

    Unless the 812VS is 1000PS (to equal SF90), does not have GPF, is not "made quieter" to comply with EU noise regulations (coming into force for Ferrari in 2021) I think its demand will actually be far less than expected.

    For the 812VS (they will not re-use "GTO" as that was just used on the 599), if it is not a better car than the SF90, as exhibited by the 812SF demand destruction, the market will not be overly compelled to purchase it at what is expected to be at a higher price than the SF90.

    Continuing 812SF/GTS/VS production until 2023 will not result in large additional production, probably fewer than 1000 units per year (production capacity has been about 2200 V12s per year).
     
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  13. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    My understanding is that therefore
    1) production number of the 812SF is likely going to be low ( at least without GPF) lower most likely than F12 numbers
    2) since SF90 destroyed demand for the 812 in order for Ferrari to generate a strong demand for the next V12 that V12 will need to have over 1000hp, sit above sf90 and will cost circa 600/700k eur and likely be a hybrid
    3) as per 2) above the 812 is likely the last non assisted v12 and future v12 will be rarer and limited to production series that will cost a lot more without guarantee to produce the sound we know from the 812SF/F12
    4) let’s enjoy those v12 while they are still affordable!
     
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  14. TWCC

    TWCC Karting

    Apr 27, 2020
    56
    my understanding was that the SF will finish production in August/ year end....then the focus is in GTS and then VS (or somewhat overlapping with GTS)...so if people say it will go till mid 23 this will be the last deliveries of the VS assuming a 18-24 production run, which would make sense

    even more so in the current environment, complete agree with @mepassione the way F managed the 812 is a disaster....demand literally evaporated ...though i am not sure it is necessary the SF90, as from what I understand it's not the hottest car out there either and i've not heard people jumping from 812s to SF90s ....think it is just more a huge oversupply at least in some markets.....delaying the new model makes no sense, the damage is done, there is no way 812 demand will get back up....better cut the losses and move on
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    However, I did confirm with several USA dealers last summer, 812SF orders were literally switched to SF90, dealers that had 18 month backlog of 812SF orders in March 2019 had immediate 812SF allocations (in July 2019) and continue to have through this day. Further, 812SF orders started dropping off in April 2019 once SF90 invites were going out...

    To make matters worse, it has been 11 months since the SF90 introduction, and actual production is not yet occurring, and based on empirical observations (i.e. dealer cars making the rounds do not actually run; test cars requiring roadside assistance, all in the past few months) I am beginning to wonder if SF90 production will be delayed until next year, if then...making the sting of lost 812SF revenue even that much greater.
     
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  16. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
    Passione
    I agree if demand has indeed evaporated it is hard to imagine how in the current economic climate it could go back up especially with so many used cars/ oversupply and with many 812SF sitting unsold with dealers at a discount.
    I think F initially managed it perfectly but I believe their marketing strategy and oversupply coupled with the current crisis and used car starting to depreciate at a speed unseen before
    This is a shame because the 812 is a phenomenal car a masterpiece
    I have a feeling lots of people jumped on it initially because the saw it as being the last na v12 but that strategy of oversupply and the effect on the used car market I’m sure cooled some people off plus having a new faster model coming out every 18 months isn’t giving people the time to enjoy their pride.
    If really the future of v12 engines is hybrid and those car sit above sf90 and cost much more I think Ferrari would gain from sharing a bit more transparency and that could push demand back up people will realise its the last chance to get hold of such s jewel at a bargain considering how the sf90 costs
    Without that I agree i dont see demand go back up that means the 812 will end up rarer than thought initially and might become very desirable longer term when future v12 potentially become hybrid and cost a fortune
     
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  17. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 11, 2015
    11,917
    Lakeway, Texas
    Full Name:
    William
    Interesting that you mention this. At the reveal party for the SF90 our dealer hosted, the car was not started. I asked my SA why and he said they had some problems with the car earlier in the day and it wouldn't start. LOL!

    Not only is the SF90 out of my range, I wouldn't want one until they were in production a while because there are so many new systems involved. You would be on the bleeding edge. I prefer generally to get an incrementally improved product but the SF90 is a long way from incremental from the Ferrari perspective. I think it's probably a great car but it's not for me and probably won't ever be. So I settled for the 812 as I could afford it and it would be a stepping stone to the GTS. Now that oil is in the gutter, I don't know that I will ever be able to get the GTS but I am very happy with my new 812 without GPF. It's a fantastic car.
     
  18. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
    Full Name:
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    Introducing the sf90 so quickly was totally unnecessary and shows how fast F are willing to move which isnt reassuring when you spend over 400k euros on an 812
    Similarly introducing the F8 right after the Pista. This is a VS car and I can tell you here in London there are over 20 pistas sitting unsold with dealers and the f8 didn’t even hit the showrooms.
    That being said for me the introduction of the sf90 didnt change my mind around the 812 which is a fantastic car i saw the sf90 during the 812 GTS preview and i wouldnt pick one over the 812 not to mention the cost
     
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  19. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
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    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Don't agree about the 812VS. If numbered and even close to what is rumored they will all be gone instantly. Recession or not Ferrari buyers want this car. I also don't think the SF90 has anything to do with the 812VS. Leagues apart in every respect except the person who will approve penning it.
     
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  20. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 3, 2012
    3,053
    UK
    I agree. I can see why SF90 might impact the tail-end sales of a mid-life car, even one it is not really a competitor for on engineering terms. But 812VS has very little crossover with SF90 other than price. The 812VS succeeds the TDF as a traditional, front-engined, old-school, V12 with track-influenced dynamics and some sort of likely criteria-based production limitation. Unless they decide it has to be hybrid, there is no way it will have more power than SF90. I also doubt they will price it higher unless they properly limit production (812 units in this climate would still be ok). If it turns out to be a hybrid (which I doubt), it’s not a TDF replacement, instead a whole new concept, which would compete with SF90. Unless they simply cannot do a TDF replacement, I don’t see why they would do this and threaten SF90 sales before it’s even produced.

    Somewhat limited, non-hybrid V12 in the vein of TDF at similar pricing to SF90 seems the most logical to me. There are definitely customers waiting for that, many of whom have not and will not order a SF90. An irony might be that SF90 customers might be given some priority (just a guess) since it might be difficult to stop customers swapping their unfulfilled SF90 orders to 812VS otherwise.
     
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  21. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
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    Feb 4, 2014
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    From what has been posted here before the 812VS is a different direction than SF90. As with other models, there are those here that know a lot more about this creature and not posting. The average SF90 buyer would not qualify for the 812VS.
     
  22. Gianfranco341

    Gianfranco341 Karting

    Sep 12, 2017
    248
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    Gianfranco
    I think we have not to confuse standard production with special limited versions for collection as 812 VS . These one will be limited and they will not suffer to be sold . As far as production is concerned I think a Ferrari customer had clear idea in the past :
    1) entry level like California with a 8V turbo
    2) middle sporty like 488 GTB With a 8V
    3) top of production , 12V, maximum power , highest price .
    It was like a ladder and each step had great success . I think there is a lot of confusion at the moment with so many models with different characteristics . Which is the top model on standard production ? Is it SF 90 for more power and price ? Or is it 812 for a V12 NA ?
    I think they are going on with 812 SF together with GTS and the will push one more than the other in relation to demand . Special edition will be treated apart as they are already doing with Monza SP1 an SP2
     
  23. mepassione

    mepassione Formula Junior

    Aug 17, 2019
    932
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    To me i don’t See Ferrari keeping a V8 (sf90) at the top end of the production cycle for long hence why they will have to come up at some point with a similar v12 hybrid that sits above sf90 Which will be an expensive model. They may not release too early because it will otherwise threaten sales of sf90
    As it relates to demand for 812/gts ferrari did a good job advertising that the gts would be a capped production number and that criteria would apply in order to get one which i somehow doubt. Therefore i expect future production to focus on gts as a result Of Ferrari own marketing which echoes comments from Marcel that 812 production will end soon and make space to GTS production. The 812VS i agree is another story, a limites series which buyers and collectors want ( those who have purchased a lot of normal production cars to get one) and will sell easily
     
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  24. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2017
    6,704
    Unless you are like me; love the car and consider a long term keeper.
     
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  25. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2017
    6,704
    Thought exercise, what if it was only nominally lighter, nominally more powerful, sonically challenged, and twice as expensive as a 812? Perhaps the styling will be enhanced and the various “mistakes” on the 812 repaired, but CV19 after-effects have to be baked in as well. Maybe the car sells, but I doubt it will be lusted over like it could, and should, have been. For my part, I wouldn’t qualify for one, my only new Ferrari purchase is my current 812, but 100 less pounds and 30 more HP wouldn’t make me want to spend the $300,000++ up charge especially since it will be equipped with a GPF. By the way, those numbers are pure conjecture on my part.
     
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