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Arizona Auction Results

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by billnoon, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    Jim, you are probably as well informed as anyone could possibly be regarding the auction process, you'll have researched the market, done your due diligence on the car and will know the maximum you will be happy to pay. Let's take someone not so well informed who gets induced to bid on a car he/she is interested in buying by the persuasive auctioneer and excitement generated by the house bids that doesn't quite meet reserve, but then is told to "come and see us after the auction." If a deal is done at this person's high bid are they not a "patsy" having been induced to bid by what cannot be denied are false bids, if indeed house bids took place to drive the price up in that particular auction?
     
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  3. Ashman

    Ashman Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Sep 5, 2002
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    What happens if a seller sets an unrealistically high reserve price and then the shill bid just short of that high reserve price gets reported as the "high bid, no sale" for the car? Do potential buyers take that information into account when that same car shows up at the next auction?
     
  4. MiuraP400

    MiuraP400 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2008
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    Jim
    Yes, $2.8M was the hammer price.

    Cheers Jim
     
  5. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    A very good point.
     
  6. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    That certainly happens. If you read the comments in Sports Car Market, you will frequently see something along the lines of "If there was a real bidder in the room, the seller would certainly have taken that bid."

     
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  8. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    Jim. I think the answer is that some auction houses are more professional than others. I have never bid at an auction in the US but speak purely from many years of experience with UK & European houses. There are some whose opinions I will trust and others I wouldn't listen to. I follow the Ferrari market and try to keep up to date but couldn't start to comment on other marques. However the average auction may have say 40-50 different makes of car and the average age and experience of most of the guys employed by the auction houses is low. How can they possibly have the knowledge to give secure advice on all the cars for sale ? The truth is that they are no different to me, they are car salesmen. Most are on commission for any cars they introiduce to the auction so they are bound to be biased.

    I agree its legal for the house to bid up to the reserve but that does not make it ethical in my mind. I'm also not so sure that all do. I always guess that the lower estimate published is somewhere near the reserve. Many times I have heard the phrase........Make no mistake, we are selling this car.......Does that mean the reserve is passed ? Why not just say....The reserve has been met ..... One also hears ....Thats not quite enough, please come and see us after the auction..... Which seems a far fairer way of doing business. From my experience most sellers value their cars at more than the market sees them so by the auction house bidding up to the reserve they are surely allowing the seller to create a false level. Having said that, if someone outbids the house then nobody has put a gun to their head but they have probably been misled as to the true value of the lot. In conclusion I dont think the house should be allowed to bid at all and any lot determined by genuine bidders on the floor.....In my dreams !
     
  9. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Whilst I agree with most of your sentiments, Paul, I think the phrase "true value" has absolutely no meaning.


    Onno
     
  10. The Red Baron

    The Red Baron Formula Junior

    Jan 3, 2005
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    I agree with you Paul and in a perfect world that would be how it should be. The auction house is selling to the public and it is not the auction house buying the car therefore it should let the price be set by its customers. Most from what I have seen the auction house can legally place a bid. The only difference seems to be in some countries that can extend to the reserve and in others they can only make 1 bid on behalf of the house.
     
  11. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
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    I think its interesting that every catalogue I receive from an auction house has several pages of very small print outlining the rules and regulations and how the auction will be conducted. I am yet to read any notice or disclaimer that the house has the right to bid on a lot other than on behalf of an absentee bidder. Have I missed something ?
     
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  13. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    No. Smart buyers know that No Sale mean No Sale and often times a silly reserve. Buyers who don't know exactly what they're doing often make mistakes at auctions, at dealerships, on EBAY, on Craiglist, etc., etc, etc.
     
  15. donv

    donv F1 World Champ
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    This practice is also known as "chandelier bidding." In some extreme cases, the comment is "There must have been a drunken chandelier bidding on that one!"

     
  16. mdw3

    mdw3 Karting

    Jan 2, 2005
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    You must not attend very many auctions. From Sotheby's current Conditions of Business, printed in BOLD TYPE in every catalogue I regularly receive (similar provisions also included in every other major house's books), and also announced verbatim prior to the start of each live auction session that I have ever attended, for every department or specialty:

    "THE AUCTIONEER IS ENTITLED TO MAKE CONSECUTIVE BIDS OR MAKE BIDS IN RESPONSE TO OTHER BIDS ON BEHALF OF THE 'SELLER' UP TO THE 'RESERVE' PLACED ON THE LOT, ALTHOUGH THE AUCTIONEER WILL NOT INDICATE DURING THE AUCTION THAT HE MAKING SUCH BIDS ON BEHALF OF THE 'SELLER'."
     
  17. Oodalls

    Oodalls Rookie

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  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #190 miurasv, Jan 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
    As Jim has mentioned Ebay and although not quite the same it's illegal for sellers to use different accounts and for friends to artificially drive up the prices of their wares. People have been prosecuted in the UK for doing so. See here: eBay shill bidder gets £5,000 fine ? The Register

    I wonder if it would be legal in the UK and US if it was possible to bid on your own auctions using the same account or for Ebay to bid on your behalf up to the reserve if it was disclosed by the seller in the terms of the auction, as that is what the auction houses do with the disclosure being the difference?
     
  19. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    Sadly I attend far too many auctions....... or, rather there are far too many auctions. However Sothebys ceased selling cars in the UK about 15 years ago so havent noticed. However nor have I seen in other auction house catalogues. I will check the latest ones I have but I am wondering if this just in the US ? I am 100% certain that I have never heard this announced prior to or during an auctioin.
     
  20. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    I have just read the entire 'small print' of Bonhams latest European offering and can find no reference to this........As suggested, perhaps its US law.
     
  21. mdw3

    mdw3 Karting

    Jan 2, 2005
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    Michael
    Look at Gooding terms from this past weekend. It is there plain as day, nearly verbatim language. I suspect in Europe too. I see it and hear it every time I go to a sale, no matter whether in USA, Europe or Asia.
     
  22. DIGMAN52

    DIGMAN52 F1 Rookie
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    I have a friend who says he always wants to lay an eye on people bidding against him, to try to weed out the shill bids.

    I realize that some percentage of bids do come over the internet and by phone. Are there fake bidders out there in the audience to place these house bids, or do they always come via the phone/internet bid areas?

    For the average under $100k purchase, be it exotic or musclecar, isn't it wiser to do a search versus going the auction route? Then you are able to PPI the vehicle and know what you are getting into. I know this is a whole different ballgame than the rare, documented cars talked about above.
     
  23. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

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    I'm obviously deaf as well as blind.......
     
  24. flat-12

    flat-12 Formula Junior

    Mar 18, 2011
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    I really don't think that GT's are more worth than GTS's, also NOT in Europe.
     
  25. TurboTerrificNo9

    Sep 24, 2011
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    UK
    Bet you can play 'a mean pin ball....'
     
  26. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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    Dec 8, 2003
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    Me too; I did not hear any such statement Saturday from D. Gooding as he introduced the days events.
    He did later make clear that Gooding 'had an interest' in the Lancia B24 America which went mind-blowingly beyond the pre-sale estimate.....otherwise, not.
     
  27. Juan-Manuel Fantango

    Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 18, 2004
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    I told Bob Z today he should consider selling his GTC. Makes you think, if only you are lucky enough to hit the top of a market. How much higher?
     
  28. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

    Dec 17, 2003
    2,017
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    With respect to shill bidding, so long as you know what your own maximum is, you can't really get into trouble. If your maximum is $1 million, and the auctioneer shills a car you want up to $990,000, you can still bid your maximum and buy the car. If the seller sets an unrealistic reserve, that is his right, as it is his car- he is not required to sell it for less than he would like, although sometimes the auction company negotiates the reserve downward after the fact.

    if I could require any changes to auction formats, it would be to require the company to display a running "out-the-door" price on the screen as the car is bid up. People who buy a Ferrari for 7 million are actually paying 7.7 million for the car, before taxes. The reasons they don't do this are obvious. Auctions are designed to benefit sellers.
     

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