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Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by billnoon, Jan 18, 2013.
I agree it would only be clear if nyc's post was read in full. Your point is taken.
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How is it deceiving? It's very clearly disclosed by the Auction Houses.
Regarding Art. There is a lot of Art that is very unlikely to trade and even Art that is illegal to sell that can and is valued every day.
The US IRS recently took the position that a painting that was illegal to sell, as part of it contained an endangered species had a value of 40 million USD.
When Museum's loan paintings that are part of their permanent collection the borrower has to pay for insurance covering loss during the period of the loan based on the value of that Art.
The buyer who paid the record amount so far has also made a deal borrow part of the Louve's permanent collect for a while. The insurance premium clearly reflects the value of that Art.
So is it made very clear during the auction that the house bids are indeed house bids during the bidding in each auction?
Yes it's made very clear at every auction that the house may bid up to but not beyond the reserve if there is one. In writing in the catalog and verbally before the auction starts.
As a car can not sell during an auction unless it reaches it's reserve unless during the auction the Auction House clearly states that "The car is now selling" and the House thus may not continue to bid, this is a total non issue.
If the House was the high bidder and the reserve was not met the Auction House must hammer "No Sale" and if they feel a real bidder was close they invite him to see them "after the sale" where cars often sell.
Thank you for the clarification. So house bids, which are false bids, are not declared as house bids during each separate auction of each car.
it is. In a world where a painting can cost over $100M, $35M for a GTO can never be too high a price.
I have in the past been involved with high end new car sales ( alfas,Maserati and the like also used exotic consignments ) in Newport Beach CA...,we worked the auctions and those 'in the know' are aware of what goes on at these auctions...not with every car but it does go on..come on guys it's 'THE CAR BUSINESS' take everything you read or are told about a car that's for sale with a BIG grain of salt...those of us that are or were in it know to be wary and go in with both eyes open ..these adages have NOT changed "buyer beware" and "a fool and his money are soon parted" every once in awhile the average guy will "hit a home run" as we say in the car business ....gentleman it can be the salesman on the used car lot selling 10 year old daily drivers to the salesman at the exotic car store advertised in the glossy color car magazines remember the later most likely started at the former...do your homework,or hire a professional to go with you on the expensive purchases,especially at the auctions..the trained professional has spent years around cars in most likely different levels( worked on them,sold them ,bought and sold them retail and wholesale and auctioned them) the really good ones KNOW when they walk up to a car wether it is what it is presented as...my 2 cents ..Chuck
I agree. It is legal but I think the house should inform the bidders when the item has reached its reserve. Even Ebay do that.
Are your referring to 9675 sold by Bonhams or another car?
The Bonhams one sold for $150,200 inc premium. No mention of PS or AC.
No the Gooding car...
As Napolis said, the auctioneers are very clear about when a car is "now selling". They may not say "we've been bidding thus far and the car has now reached is reserve price" in those exact words, but they always make it very clear when bidding reaches the reserve and will actually sell. I agree that since a car won't sell below the reserve, there's no harm in helping the bidding along to get it to a point where a transaction can occur.
Because it is not art.
I watched the auction online. I understand the rules and the fact that the auction house will bid up to the reserve, but I guess not everyone would understand that and some would think it a bit odd/strange/unethical.
But that said what I didn't think was great was how many times a bidder was asked to offer 'just another 5-10k,' 'what's that between friends..' He bids the extra....Then bang he wears it. Now as said before it's a case of buyer beware and all that but, to me, that didn't look great.
In auctions like these what is clear, is very clear, and if it is not clear you can read it on the catalogue.
Anyhow, strange things happen.
One thing it is not clear nor stated anywhere is that the reserve price can be changed during the auction.
So if you have a reserve price, but as a bidder you do not know it, and it can be changed, then... you might be manipulated a bit.
There absolutely is deception - although not illegality. For example, ever see the chasing classic cars episode where Wayne was selling a car at auction and gave the nod to take the reserve off as the bidding was trailing off only to receive the head-shake that the current bid wasn't real. Basically, the buyers and sellers don't know what the heck is going on half the time in such a forum.
The art auction houses aren't as "honest" as their car selling counterparts then, because the issue of chandelier bidding post reserve ( which is usually the low estimate - sometimes less but never more) reportedly continues to happen, not to mention guarantees to the consignor etc which are not disclosed.
I recommend those of you interested in how the art market has developed to read the books "The 12 Million Dollar Stuffed Shark" and "Seven Days in the Art World". They are both nice snapshots (economic and sociologic, respectively) of how the values of Contemporary and Modern Art have shot up significantly since about the 1970's (pretty much after the infamous Scull collection auction)...
And perhaps if you want, watch this video:
THE ART MARKET IS LES ETHICAL THAN THE STOCK MARKET on Vimeo
House bidding is similar to the illegal Shill Bidding but disclosed by the house as described by Napolis above, which makes it legal. When the results of a car auction are published, the prices bid for the cars that didn't sell are listed along with those that did which itself could create a false precedent in the buying public's eyes for a car that was bid up by the house. I actually think it could also be counter productive as if I was bidding for a car I'd like to know that the other bids were real.
...this can be discussed....
I can't agree with this. Art is art, and cars are cars. There are great cars, influential cars, beautiful cars and successful cars, but they are not art.
IMO the coachwork was made by artisians. Its a different art than that what Picasso etc. did - but its an art to create coachwork like the cars we are talking about.
As a designer, no, it's art. The difference is mass production or no mass production.
Art can also be mass produced. But it will effect it's value. The more beautiful, influential, or unique in the market, the more valuable.
It's pretty much the same with cars.
Cars however go deeper into our psyche than just being art though. We want to live out our boyhood dreams, fantasies, memories, etc. We want to find some experience that can no longer be found in the modern world.
That also drives the market beyond the other important factors already listed.
Steve I take your point re: NS but having bought several cars at auction I've had nothing but good experiences and never paid more than I wanted to. Years later I also think I bought well.
I always have long discussions with the House principals before bidding who have always told me where they thought things were and everything they knew about the particular car.
They also respected my privacy and allowed me to bid subtlety and never identified me as the bidder during the sale.
Please don't misunderstand me. I am in no way diminishing or denigrating what automotive or other industrial designers do to create visual and useful masterpieces. I am only drawing a distinction between what is truly "art" and what is a design masterwork created by an "artisan." Artisans, by definition, do not create art. Artists do, and these are not the same thing. A visual composition intended to accomplish a specific task (i.e., "design"), no matter how beautiful, is not "art."
I'm an artist. I build cars. Therefore, cars are art.
By the way,....did anyone see the Maserati 150 GT sell for 3+ million????