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Arizona Auction Results

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by billnoon, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
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    Jack

    - manipulation to "false price point", eg reserve which market may not support

    all of us here are aware of many such industries which also do this..nyse comes to mind...
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I agree with you.
     
  3. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    Being one of the truly great cars of all time what is the reason to pay a premium of over $one million for a copy which was owned and presumably sat in by Clark Gable.This is not the 1955 John Fitch car or one of the few alloy body,rudge knockoff cars with an impressive competitipn heritage. This type of question has benn answered before with such cars a "Mr Cool's" 250 Luso or a certain 250 California owned by.......But is Clark Gable's but really worth this kind of money?? tongascrew
     
  4. cam man

    cam man Karting

    Nov 6, 2004
    67
    It's all about the money - isn't it?
     
  5. John B

    John B Formula 3
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    May 27, 2003
    1,549
    NJ
    The only thing that matters are sales prices, where both a buyer and seller agree on a price and actually do a transaction. That's othe only thing one should pay attention to, obviously not high bids for things that didn't sell. Even actual sales prices should be taken with a grain of salt. It only takes two conspiring parties to drive a price as high as they want. Their only real cost would be buyer & seller premiums and transportation. I remember many years ago a consortium was found to be manipulating Pantera prices in this fashion. They used many companies to buy and sell Panteras between themselves at progressively higher prices at auctions. They got prices spiraling up then looked to offload to the lemmings chasing the higher prices.

    I'm personally a little leary of these recent moves. It seems nice GTC's have gone from $350k to $700k in only two transactions. Makes me go "hmmm..."
     
  6. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
  7. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
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    Jack
    Fanatasy Junction (N. Ca) has 330 gt 2+2 listed as POA.....prices listed on daytona & gtc/4....what do you think?
     
  8. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

    Nov 19, 2008
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    Steven Robertson
    Talacrest's prices are mostly always POA.
     
  9. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
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    Jack
    seems consistent, whereas FJ historically and usually, will post/list an asking price...unless a 'special' car or circumstance?....330 gt's usually will have an ask listed.....until last week, of course....now a "special car"?? To be fair, FJ is calling this 'an interim' (4 headlight with 5 sp and hanging pedals etc) 1 of 125.

    would have to had called Talacrest pre-auction..anybody do so??....to compare post-auction pricing.....

    see post #229....it's all about the money...
     
  10. PAUL BABER

    PAUL BABER Formula 3

    Nov 1, 2006
    1,058
    London. UK.
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    Paul Baber
    Always thought POA meant....... Please Offer Anything.......
     
  11. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
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    Jack
    sadly, not anymore.... very witty Paul
     
  12. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

    Apr 13, 2007
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    Mario
    Difference is the NYSE has rules & regulations, supervised by a regulatory body that can subject wrongdoers to legal action. Auction houses don't, really.
     
  13. barchetta

    barchetta Formula Junior

    Nov 5, 2003
    632
    Not exactly on point, but the U.S. Department of Justice came down pretty hard on Sotheby's and Christie's in the price fixing scandal, circa 2000.
     
  14. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3
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    Apr 5, 2010
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    Timothy Russell
    Cars selling privately in a negotiated sense where seller asks x amount for a car, buyer offers y (at a lower amount) and they negotiate is not so far removed from the policy of having a reserve and allowing bidding over that amount to buy the car or negotiating a sale between high bidder and seller when reserve hasnt been reached. No matter what a 300SL or 275 GTB isnt going to actually sell for less than $500k no matter what so even the idea of opening bidding at $500k is meaningless. In a years time who knows maybe prices will dive and $500k will become the new $1 million. It may be a bit of a sham but where the reserve is $1 million or more you know what you have to pay.......

    Christies and Sothebys and any other auction company still need to meet the laws of the state they operate in and will always have a auction purchase and sales contract that allow them to meet those laws. Issues of collusion and or outright fraud are probably fairly common like with any collectable all one can rely on is knowledge and the reputation of the auction company. Most reputable companies will never knowingly offer something that is not as explained, that is where RM and Goodings are very good at always glossing over a cars faults while still telling you what is wrong with it. Such as "The early history of cars like this are very hard to follow" or "It is our understanding that during the restoration parts of the car may have been replaced" tell you a lot. After all the auction company has to keeps its buyers happy and spending.

    The outright manipulation of a car by the seller, both what it is and price manipulation is much harder to deal with. I mean Barrett - Jackson with its 1000 plus sales over a week is far more likely just statistically to have fraud at its auctions than a little boutique auction. No organisation can arrange 1000 buyers and sellers without 1 or 2 issues. Price or lot manipulation wouldnt be impossible. Buyer beware I guess.
     
  15. 275GTBSaran

    275GTBSaran Formula Junior

    Mar 5, 2012
    966
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    Le Monde Edmond
    I wrote a post on just this topic for my Blog. Check it out under:

    PROVENANCE: Its worth a cool $1million if your name is Clark Gable » Le Monde Edmond
     
  16. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    May 28, 2003
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    What you guys fail to realize is that the auction houses make it clear that they have absolutely no fiduciary duty to the buyer, only the seller. To do otherwise would be a conflict of interest.

    The legality of the terms reflect this: the consignor pays a "commission," to the auction house for exercising due care and responsibility in the sale of the item while the buyer pays a "premium," a fee simply for the pleasure of doing business with the auction house. Look up the terms. The legality of what they're doing is clearly expressed within those terms and fully disclosed (some of the few things at an auction that truly are fully disclosed).

    Back to the point: consequently any chandelier bidding on the part of the auction house up to the reserver is ON BEHALF OF THE CONSIGNOR to whom the auction house bears a fiduciary duty. Remember, it owes the buyer nothing.
     
  17. merstheman

    merstheman F1 Rookie

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    #242 merstheman, Jan 22, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
    My problem is not with the legality of Auction houses' activities, which is clearly stated most of the time. It has to do with their position as important determinants of market price for the cars - and the possible implications these activities have on market prices.

    There is in my opinion a question of ethics here, because since auction results are a matter of public record, and private sales are not, the prices determined at auction tend to set the pace for the valuation of these vehicles. The auction houses are well aware of this. And so are the dealers.

    Someone said a few posts ago that no one pays attention to No-Sales. I disagree. I guarantee you that dealers who have these cars in their inventories are paying very close attention to what happens in these auctions - when they are not bidding themselves, that is - because results like the ones we've seen - for the 330's (2+2s and GTCs), for instance - mean that many dealers suddenly have a reason to jack up the prices on their inventories quite a bit. It's like a license to profit more, because they can point to a result and say "well that car sold for X dollars, so these cars are obviously undervalued at our price Y (which is less than X)...lets put the price up closer to X". See the 330 at Fantasy Junction someone pointed out here as an example... And the cars that didn't sell in the auction, but did later in a post auction deal will also probably be at a price closer to the taller value. No-sale prices are almost as important to the dealers as sale prices. They are important determinants of what private sales will go for, especially those of the less rare cars like 330s, Lussos, 275s, Daytonas etc... If no sale results proved to be realistic - meaning free of shill bids - you could possibly see a more realistic picture of what the market for a certain type of car is. Regardless of reserve, which is usually unknown, you'd know what the real top bid for the cars were, and not the previously agreed upon by auction house and seller "one bid before reserve". This way the reserve price would not become as significant a parameter in the determination of market price as it is today.

    Most of all, though, as has been mentioned here before, what is really amazing here is that so many of these cars are actually BEING sold at well above the reserve, which is truly astonishing.
     
  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    Steven Robertson
    If correct, therein lies the problem with auction houses from a buyer's perspective.
     
  19. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    Two things I think you're missing:

    1) Either the lot sells or it doesn't. If it does sell, it's to a buyer. If a buyer purchases the lot, he does so at the lowest price it would take for him or her to own the lot, i.e. one bid more than the next highest bid. Consequently, the buyer is in total control of what he or she will pay and can be the sole judge of what that item is worth and furthermore, it's the ultimate meritocracy, i.e. Ferrari says that even though I own one of their supercars, it's not enough so they won't sell me the upcoming F150. Not so at auction; he with the fattest wallet wins.

    2) The auction process defines both ownership AND value. If the price is too much, the buyer doesn't have to bid. It's a pretty fair system.


    If you doubt me, look it up. However, the fact that you even raise the issue indicates just how green you are in the world of high end collectibles and marketplaces.

    Modern day auctions where the bids start low and go higher are based on the "english" system although it does go back to Roman times. The word auction comes from the latin word "auctio" which means to ascend. If you choose to participate in an auction to buy a car from RM, a painting from Sotheby's, or a keychain from eBay, you know how it works and what the rules are well ahead of time. Just as where the buyer can make the final decision on what he or she thinks the car is worth, you can make the decision whether or not to participate in any of the auctions. And since so many collectible Ferraris do trade hands at auction, to ignore that would be missing out on a major part of the marketplace.

    Lastly, it's important to remember that auction houses are businesses. They are in competition just like any other business. Like all successful businesses, they know the game quite well. Someone like you who argues about the system would probably think that the auction houses real work in business is attracting buyers. The reality is that their main work is securing consignors. If you understand how they work and where their true business is, you understand why their fiduciary duty lies where it does. Understanding that, you see why the auction houses do an incredible amount of work on the behalf of the consignor to earn that commission: they do extensive research, hire the photographers and stage the shoots, write the copy for the catalogues, even handle transport and storage in some cases, as well as a bunch of other things.

    Any serious collector or car aficionado owes it to themselves to understand the ins and outs of the auction system and process, its history and its role in the current marketplace. There is a lot to be gained and lost depending what cars you own and what you would like to acquire.

    All that said, this arguing about auction systems is pretty pointless. It's like arguing that you love dark chocolate but don't want to buy it because it's brown. Trust me, the auction companies don't care if you don't participate in their auctions or not although they would like to sell your pedigreed classic Ferrari - sorry, Steve, I don't know which one(s) you have as I don't post in Vintage much - to a host of ready buyers on your behalf.
     
  20. miurasv

    miurasv F1 Veteran

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    #245 miurasv, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    I don't doubt you, I looked it up. I am not against auction houses, only the house bid aspect of them and the fact that the auctioneer does not indicate when house bids are made. I do appreciate the hard work that the reputable houses like RM put into the marketing and researching etc of the cars, which I have posted about on this site quite recently. One should remember that when buying at any auction you're buying "as is" and adopt a "Buyer Beware" attitude as the only issue you could take up after purchase with the selling auction house is if the goods have been misdescribed.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=EkdDnFdoDMkC&pg=PA904&lpg=PA904&dq=fiduciary+duty+auctioneer&source=bl&ots=AUHAd0ENah&sig=ckkDdSRrpCRw-a24TDHLjeL5W3U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dfH_UOnbIcqb0QXIyoHoDA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=fiduciary%20duty%20auctioneer&f=false
     
  21. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    That's why all of us would be buyers at auctions need to educate ourselves as much as possible. While auction houses disclose a lot, there is even more that is undisclosed, just about all on the behalf of the consignor.

    You are correct that the onus is on the buyer to know what's what. The auction house has no responsibility to the buyer other than what makes proper business sense (I.e. no radical misrepresentations, defrauding, inducements, etc.)
     
  22. 300GW/RO

    300GW/RO Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2010
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    I own "his" former gullwing....also, during Cage's ownership, he was married to Elvis's daughter...who might of even sat in car!! (no backseat, so clear your minds)

    A Triple! Cage plus TWO Presleys does that mean mine is worth an extra 1 mil or 2 ????
    What you say 275GTBSaran?
     
  23. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
    4,588
    I am highly suspect of auction prices being the correct market price determinant of a model. For many of the aforementioned practices. While I wouldn't call it underhanded or fraud, I don't feel they truly legitimate the price, either. However, dealers, brokers, agents and SELLERS are quick to use auction prices as the "true" price. So, that one transaction can entirely skew asking prices.

    A good friend of mine is in just such a discussion over a car. In the past, the model has sold for north of $1MM at auction. In his opinion, the car he's looking at, while reportedly a good example, isn't worth that to him, and he is unwilling to pay auction prices in a private sale. However, the seller is adamant. He has seen the auction pricing, perhaps even encouraged to offer at that price by a broker (who has a vested interest in seeing a transaction but represents the seller) who keeps whispering a number in his ear. This deal may fall apart, and that would be alright. When one gets away, another comes along. But, it's frustrating to put time, energy and money into doing research and making a reasonable offer if the seller has stars in their eyes.

    Regardless, relying on auction prices is iffy, at best, especially when it's the high-water mark.

    CW
     
  24. WCH

    WCH F1 Veteran
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    Mar 16, 2003
    5,179
    "I am highly suspect of auction prices being the correct market price determinant of a model."


    CW - I completely agree. As the owner of a $700,000 330GTC, I assure you that auction prices are at best conservative estimates of current value. Best, Will
     
  25. sherpa23

    sherpa23 F1 Veteran
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    #250 sherpa23, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
    Private sales generally cannot replicate the prices from a "hot" auction sale, all else being equal (time, place, etc.). This is partly due to the high bidder having an "ownership feeling" over the lot. I don't know if it's an economic theory or just a phenomenon. What happens is that once someone is the high bidder, possession is now more real. Consequently, for him to give up his position as the high bidder, it takes a higher price to give it up. This is what certain economists refer to as the "endowment effect" that occurs in an auction setting.
     

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