Any Water-Wetter user here?

I used it for a couple of years, noticed no difference in temperatures. So when I did my last 2-year fluid change, I just used OEM coolant.

 

Yes I noticed a 6-10 degree drop in temp. Couldn't believe it.

 

A friend of mine uses it in his gt-40 and it works well for him. Try a search in the old archives i remember people being pro about it.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/cgi-bin/discus/search.cgi

I hope this works, it should have many threads.

 

It doesnt work. Sorry. try "water wetter" in the old archives.

here's one: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/1438.html

 

the key to using it seems to use distilled water and no anti freeze, to get the best reduction in temp. anti freeze is a corrosion inhibiter and lubes the water pump. i dont know if i would use no anti freeze at all..................

 

And with anti freeze the engine will reach operating temperature faster. Big advantage in a car that has 20 liters or more of coolant. At least if you use the car as daily driver on shorter trips.

 

I have just read this thread and the other one discussing temp. problems.
I recently had to replace the header (expantion) tank on my Mondial, now although the car have never been driven any great distance recently, 180 miles being the longest, I have never had a problem, sure the fans come on but nothing to get worried about,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is until last night, got home after an 8 mile drive from work, mixed speeds and a bit of stop and start, left the engine running while opening garage doors and moved the car into the garage. The header tank overflow then dispatched a load of coolant on to the floor. All the instruments showed things to be pretty normal, so do you think that it was just getting rid of the excess water in the system ?
But here is the kicker, while I was looking at the tank I noticed that the radiator cap has three little holes that have rusted thru. i know Italian cars can get a dose of the tin worm but the radiator cap corroding !!!!Jes thats amazing.

 

It is typical for an open system to puke shortly after stopping, especially if the system was topped off before the drive. It should not do it again there after, at least not much.

When the system cools it will then draw air back into the system which will then show a 'low' coolant level the next time you check it cold. If you refill it when cold it will pee again the next time you stop for any length of time due to expansion of the coolant.

I installed a billet aluminum surge tank next to the header tank on mine and it has aleviated the embarrassing pee under the back of my car when sitting in traffic and also eliminated the amount of bleeding I have to do because the system draws coolant back in from the surge tank instead of air.

Try a new AC/Delco radiator cap from a 1987 GMC Jimmy S15. Slightly higher operating pressure and it doesn't leak! Half the price of an OEM piece and just as good.

 

Yes. I use "40 Below" brand of water wetter. Same stuff the drag racers use. In 90 degree heat at the Canadian border on Sunday the temp in my 308 never went above 195. We sat for 45 minutes boxed in by other cars. HOT!

After doing some reading I found that this mix of water and coolant to be the most efficient, at least in theory, and in practice on my own car;

Drain and flush the entire system with heater control valves open.

Find the total volume of your cooling system capacity and fill accordingly;

25% Ethylene Glycol based antifreze.

Roughly 75% distilled water (I am told by some that bottled/filtered drinking water is better)

1 quart of "40 Below' water wetter

1 pint of Napa brand cooling system conditioner.(includes corrosion inhibitor and water pump lube)

Flush and change the entire system every other year (or two) to maintain proper PH in the system to reduce electrolisis and /or galvinization(sp?).

 

Mixing different products together is generally bad. You are at least diluting the additives from the original glycol product. If these additives were needed then the factory would spec them. NEVER add anything to oil, gas, cooling systems. They were designed around the original products they ship with.

Also, if you were able to decrease the temperature of your engine by say 20 degrees this may actually be bad. Engines are deigned to run at a certain temperature range.

If you are overheating then fix the problem causing it. That is like all these people who use really thick oil to minimize an engine oil leak. Use the correct oil for the engine application, fix the leak.

aehaas

 

Could you elaborate? What is wrong with combining products that conform to industry standards?

.....diluting..........which is why I added the extra NAPA cooling system additive. Most new cars take a separate additive in addition to the antifreeze in the system anyway. Do you really think it would hurt my 25 year old carbureted 308?

I tend to agree when it comes to the so called "Wonder" products. I use no additives in my fuel or oil.

The purpose of using the reduced amount of antifreeze, more water and water wetter is to improve the EFFICIENCY of the cooling system. Water is more efficient at transfering heat than antifreeze is. The water wetter makes it even more so.

I agree 100%. As long as I use a thermostat my engine will continue to run at it's designed tempurature. I am trying to improve it's efficiency under extreme conditions.

I agree 100%. I didn't have an overheating problem but read enough about the inefficiencies of the 308 cooling systems, namely the fans and the path of airflow, that I wanted to maximize it's performance to minimize the chance of overheating in the future. A typical 'car guy' approach to improving on a design.

 

I think this article may help explain;

Red Line WaterWetter® is designed to provide improved metal wetting and excellent corrosion inhibition when added to plain water or a glycol coolant. The most poorly maintained system in an automobile is usually the cooling system. Maintenance is quite simple and only required once each year, but most vehicle owners never routinely change the coolant or replenish the corrosion inhibitors which are required for trouble-free operation. Proper cooling system maintenance is very critical for most modern engines which utilize more aluminum. Aluminum has a very high corrosion potential, even higher than zinc, which is very widely used as a sacrificial anode. The only property which enables aluminum to be used in a cooling system is that it will form protective films under the proper conditions which will prevent the uncontrolled corrosive attack of acids or bases. Poor aluminum corrosion inhibition will cause the dissolution of aluminum at the heat rejection surfaces, weakening the cooling system walls and water pump casing and weakening the head gasket mating surfaces. These corrosion products will then form deposits on the lower temperature surfaces such as in radiator tubes which have very poor heat transfer properties, causing a significant reduction in the cooling ability of the entire system. Red Line WaterWetter® will provide the proper corrosion inhibition for all cooling system metals, including aluminum, cast iron, steel, copper, brass, and lead.

Water has twice the heat transfer capability when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Most passenger automobiles have a cooling system designed to reject sufficient heat under normal operating conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution in water. However, in racing applications, the use of water and WaterWetter® will enable the use of smaller radiator systems, which means less frontal drag, and it will also reduce cylinder head temperatures, even when compared to water alone, which means more spark advance may be used to improve engine torque.

BENEFIT SUMMARY
Doubles the wetting ability of water
Improves heat transfer
Reduces cylinder head temperatures
May allow more spark advance for increased torque
Reduces rust, corrosion and electrolysis of all metals
Provides long term corrosion protection
Cleans and lubricates water pump seals
Prevents foaming
Reduces cavitation corrosion
Complexes with hard water to reduce scale
COOLING SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS
The conventional spark ignition gasoline engine is not a very efficient powerplant. A considerable amount of the available fuel energy must be rejected from the metal combustion chamber parts by the coolant and dispersed to the atmosphere through the radiator. This heat rejection is necessary in order to prevent thermal fatigue of the pistons, cylinder walls, and the cylinder head. Another problem is that the combustion chamber must be cooled enough to prevent preignition and detonation. The higher the combustion chamber temperatures, the higher the octane number required to prevent preignition and detonation. Since the octane of the available fuel is limited, increasing temperatures in the combustion chamber require retarding the spark timing which reduces the peak torque available. Higher inlet temperatures also reduce the density of the fuel/air mixture, reducing available torque further. For these reasons reducing the flow of heat to the coolant usually reduces the efficiency of the engine. Figure 1 shows a typical heat balance diagram for a spark ignition engine. This diagram demonstrates that the coolant in an automobile engine must absorb and reject through the radiator 2 to 3 times the amount of energy which is converted to brake power.



THERMAL PROPERTIES
Water has amazingly superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid cooling medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in Table 1, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the cooling system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50 glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.

Table 1
Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials Material Density
g/cm3 Thermal
Conductivity
Watt/m · °C Thermal
Convection
Watt/m · °C Heat
Capacity
cal/g · °C Heat of
Vaporization
cal/g
Water 1.000 0.60 1829 1.000 539
Glycol 1.114 0.25 ------ 0.573 226
50/50 1.059 0.41 897 0.836 374

Aluminum 2.70 155 0.225
Cast Iron 7.25 58 0.119
Copper 8.93 384 0.093
Brass 8.40 113 0.091
Ceramics 1 - 10
Air .0013 .026 0.240


HEAT TRANSFER
Red Line WaterWetter® can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surface. Under heavy load conditions, much of the heat in the cylinder head is transferred by localized boiling at hot spots, even though the bulk of the cooling solution is below the boiling point. Red Line's unique WaterWetter® reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles on the metal surface create an insulating layer which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surface can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15% as shown in Figure 2. This figure demonstrates the removal of heat from an aluminum bar at 304°F by quenching the bar in different coolants at 214°F under 15 psi pressure. Compare the time required to reduce the temperature of the aluminum to 250°F, or the boiling point of water at 15 psi. WaterWetter® required 3.2 seconds, water alone 3.7 sec, 50/50 glycol in water required 10.2 sec, and 100% glycol required 21 sec. Water alone required 15% longer, 50/50 glycol 220% longer, and 100% glycol required 550% longer.


Performance Properties of Coolants
Cooling System Fluid Stabilized Temperature
50% Glycol/ 50% Water 228°F
50/50 with WaterWetter 220°F
Water 220°F
Water with WaterWetter 202°F

DYNO TEST RESULTS
Dynomometer tests performed by Malcolm Garrett Racing Engines showed significant improvements in coolant temperatures using WaterWetter. These tests were performed with a Chevrolet 350 V-8 with a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder heads. The thermostat temperature was 160°F. The engine operated at 7200 rpm for three hours and the stabilized cooling system temperature was recorded and tabulated below:

These numbers are similar to the temperatures recorded in track use and heavy-duty street use.

COOLANT EFFECTS ON PERFORMANCE
Under moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures by 1°F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45°F. This increase in temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically 3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensor will retard the timing to compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5°, which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%. Racing vehicles not equipped with knock sensors can advance timing for increased torque.


BOILING POINT ELEVATION
Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly increase the boiling point of water; however, increasing pressure will raise the boiling point. The boiling point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi cap is 250°F compared to 265°F at 15 psi for 50% glycol. Increasing the pressure by 50% to 23 psi will increase the boiling point of water to 265°F. Because of the doubling of the ability of the radiator to transfer heat, boilover using Red Line treated water is not a problem as long as the engine is circulating coolant through the head and the fan is circulating air. Sudden shutdown after very hard driving may cause boilover.

SAE 880266 Water +
Red Line 50% Glycol 70% Glycol
Increase in Cylinder
Head Temperature Baseline +45°F +65°F
Increase in Octane
(RON) Requirement Baseline +3.5 +5.0
Change in Spark Timing
for Trace Knock Baseline -5.2° -7.5°
Change in Torque Baseline -2.1% -3.1%

FREEZING POINT DEPRESSION
Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly reduce the freezing point of water. If the vehicle will see freezing temperatures, an antifreeze must be used. Water expands approximately 9% upon freezing which can cause severe engine damage. Even in summertime, the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used.

CORROSION PROTECTION
Modern automotive engines now use aluminum for heads, radiators, water pump housings, and nearly all hose fittings. These engines require significantly greater corrosion protection than their cast iron counterparts of the past. Aluminum is such an electroactive metal that it requires an impenetrable corrosion inhibitor film to prevent rapid corrosion. Acid neutralization capability is very important. Coolant which has been left in a cooling system for several years has probably become acidic from the oxidation of the glycol to acids. Also, keeping the glycol concentration in the cooling system below 50% will help stability.

Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the water pump and cylinder head. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms vapor bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with poor heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone and glycol solutions.

Most coolants additives on the market provide only protection for iron and perhaps moderate protection for aluminum. The milky soluble oil types can actually impede heat transfer by wetting the metal surface with oil and this oil can swell and soften rubber coolant hoses. Table 3 shows the many tests which the Red Line formula will satisfy and how it compares to a standard antifreeze.

TABLE 3
Comparison of Corrosion Inhibition Properties
PROPERTY RED LINE SPEC COOLANT A
pH 8.6 7.5 - 11 9.8
Boiling Point @ 15 psig 250°F 265°F (50%)
Freezing Point 31°F -35°F(50%) -35°F
Foaming Height, ml 75 150 50
Color Pink green
Ash, % 0.5 5, max 1
Surface Tension @ 100°C,
Dynes/cm2 28.3 58.9 (water)
ASTM D4340 Heat Transfer
Corrosion Test, Aluminum
Weight loss, mg/cm2/wk 0.21 1 max 0.45
ASTM D1384 Corrosion,
Weight loss, mg/specimen
Copper 1 10 max 5
Solder 6 30 7
Brass 2 10 5
Steel 1 10 6
Cast Iron 0 10 3
Aluminum 16 30 30


SLIPPERINESS OF COOLANTS
Red Line WaterWetter® does not alter the frictional property of tire rubber and water on a pavement surface. The chart below shows the static and dynamic friction of pavement wetted with different coolant types. Higher friction indicates less slipperiness. The dynamic friction indicates the increase in slipping which occurs after the tire begins to break loose. Water and water with WaterWetter® reduce the friction relative to dry pavement about 50%, but it is much less than the reduction in friction caused by ethylene glycol and even more slippery is propylene glycol.


USE DIRECTIONS
One 12 ounce bottle treats 12-16 quarts of water or a 50% ethylene or propylene glycol solution. In smaller cooling systems, use 4-5 caps per quart. Add directly through the cooling system fill cap into the radiator or into the overflow tank. Do not open a cooling system while hot. For best protection for aluminum, replenish or replace every 15,000 miles. The anti-scaling ingredients in Red Line WaterWetter allow its use with ordinary tap water. However, using with distilled or deionized water will accomplish some scale removal in the cylinder head area. For maximum temperature reductions use the most water and the least antifreeze possible to prevent freezing in your climate. Even in summertime the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20% antifreeze is used. Red Line WaterWetter is available in 12 ounce containers.


This is not a cure all. If there are any mechanical problems in the system, accumilated corrosion or a plugged radiator then disregard the previous and fix the system first.

 

It works in my cars as advertised. In my opinion, it is a good product. But if your car is running too hot, you need to find out why and remedy the problem.

 

Works miracles. Try doing the Syskiyou Summit in 100deg+ weather. Dropped my temps 20 degrees in such circumstances.

Side effect: Makes bleeding cooling system a bit more difficult, as the system stays so darn cool that it won't build up enough pressure to give the 'hiss' at the rad bleed screw. My temps stay right at 90degC (thermostat temp) regardless.

 

For about 5 years now I have run ww plus distilled water only. No coolant. Around mid to late Oct I replace the antifreeze and leave that 50/50 mix in until the Spring.

No problems so far and my water temps in our Alabama summers are now closer to "normal"

 

Whether or not to use WW with water only or with a 50/50 antifreeze mix seems to be a point of argument, and I'd guess that either is OK. However, Red Line insists that WW is compatible with antifreeze. Their engineering expertise has a very good reputation.

 

I used it in my ex 308 and it seemed to help some

 

This gives some real-world info on the subject:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Coolant_Flush/E36-Coolant-Flush.htm

-Wayne

 

Excellent Wayne,
Good advice. I was unaware of the importance of PH until a few years ago. I have personally seen the results of electrolisis in one of my Z cars. Water pump cavity was destroyed. I would imagine the usage of high amperage sound systems would excellerate the process if the engine and chassis did not have larger and more extensive grounding.

 

That would probably be a good assumption. A lot of people concentrate mostly on changing their oil, and have a tendency to neglect the coolant...

-Wayne

 

I used in in my Dino and believe it does work. I lived out in the central valley where temps routinely got over 100F. I too run a limited amount of glycol in the summer with the water wetter and then go back to 50/50 mix in the winter because it does get below freezing out there. Now that I'm back here in the bay area, I'll probably keep the summer mixture year round in my cars.

Once I was following friend's Fiat X1/9 on a drive up highway 5 to Oregon and he got on the radio to say he was slowing down because he was overheating too much. I gave him a bottle of water wetter and he mentioned that right away the temps dropped. I swear by the stuff now.

 

Interesting thread.

I don't use water wetter... and I use Redline products religiously.

One thing really bugs me about ww- if the coolant is supposed to be more efficient in transferring heat from the engine, why does the coolant temp read lower?

Think about it... Heat is generated by the engine... then is taken away via coolant (coolant temps rise)- which is then transferred to the radiator (coolant temps fall). Most cars I know take the coolant temp at the head before the radiator, so if there's more heat transfer from the block, why isn't it in the coolant?

I personally think more heat is retained in the block when using ww, and more heat in the head also means more chances of pre-detonation.

If you are concerned about the coolant boiling, use a higher boiling point coolant... like Evans NPG+.

My $.02...

 

My guess is that the same properties that make it better at removing heat from the engine make it better for transferring that heat to the radiator, and make it more efficient for the radiator to dissipate that heat -- there is more efficient thermal flow into and out of the coolant.