Antique Pocket Watch Identification and Restoration

Spare parts are all cleaned up (except the spring and barrel) and ready to ship.

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I still haven't found any information regarding the maker but I keep coming across movements like this (see picture below) by Longines. No, they are not cylinder escapements, but everything else of the design is SO similar. (this one is a mirror of the layout of Phil's)

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Rich,
That was the track Pol was on. Both watches are 'of the period' and use the same parts sources. Its ébauche maker may be the same or it may be that you are seeing style cues of the period. For example, the design of the 1964 Ferrari 330gt 2+2 series 1 has a quirky 4 headlight set-up. If you look at Rollses or Bentleys from 1964, you'll see they have similar styling that is commonly referred to as "Chinese Eye", the Gordon-Keeble has the same styling as do others to a lesser degree. Apparently it was a thing in 1964. To some degree this is what you are seeing in the watch movements.

I am certain that the movement I found used the same ébauche as Phil's watch. I am not certain the same shop finished both. I don't yet know how to figure out who made the ébauche, Are the movements lower end, un-branded Longines? Maybe, but how do we prove it? Also, if so, what do we make of the Jules Jurgensen that Pol posted a link to and shares design cues. Does this suggest that both Jurgensen and Longines used the same source of ébauches or do they merely share period design cues?

I'll throw out another interesting piece of info: many of the swiss makers used the same models of production watchmaking machines. Interestingly, many were sourced from the US.

Regards,

Art S.

 

I can happily say that I've finally been able to deliver a Service Document to Phil today. As a part of this process I took step by step photos of the disassembly, analysis, repairs, and reassembly processes. Since we still have not been able to identify the make/model of Phil's movement I couldn't provide him with factory service instructions. I had to work off of several different sets of instructions to come up with what I think was a good approach for oils/grease. I've dropped all the reassembly images into a PDF and used some color coded icons to indicate where and what lubricant I've used so anyone else could do the same in the future (including myself). I don't know how much it will help as any professional watchmaker would probably be able to determine their own plan easily enough but now it is done, just in case.

 

Any progress in identifying the watch?

 

It isn't for lack of trying but no, no progress.

 

Still no. I've been scouring eBay every couple of weeks to see if I can find a pocket watch with the same or similar movement (I still don't know how ArtS pulled that off!) in the hopes that someone would randomly know something about what they're selling. No luck though. I keep checking my posts in the messageboards and Facebook where I asked and nothing there either.

I'm beginning to think that Phil has the only two in existence!

 

I've hit dead-ends as well. I might have missed and just a suggestion, any way to contact the seller Art bought from?

 

Remember how I said I wasn’t done with this story? Well… the Walnut Lab is being haunted by the Ghost Of Projects Past!

Not only is there still the lingering question of who made Phil’s watch and when, but since this was my first serious watch repair/restore project I wanted something to remember it by. Ok sure I have a bunch of photos… and this thread… and my Instagram posts about it… ok fine, I was jealous of Phil having the only two in existence! That is, until today.

Meet Project: One.

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I was trolling the dark corners of eBay and stumbled on this third edition. There are some slight differences in the detailing, but it is SO close. This little beauty is going to make a wonderful wrist watch for me for special occasions.

@PhilB , let me know if you’d rather me start a new thread for the spin-off episodes.

 

My opinions (sorry for butting in Phil):

1. No spin-off threads, this is a continuation of the same saga - the maker mystery still needs to be solved!
2. I'm not sure that wristwatch is the best solution for the movement - maybe a desk display?
3. I think you've handled more of that movement type than anyone else in at least a century!

Regards,
Art S.

 

1) That was my thought as well, but I’ll let Phil make the final call.
2) The other thought which I really would love is to find an appropriate pocket watch case but a desk clock could be a great idea too!
3) I believe it.

 

As a cylinder escapement it probably won't perform too well in multiple positions as on the wrist. There are a huge number of really high end orphaned Patek, Vacheron, Sandoz, H. Capt, Nardin, A. Lange and the like pocket watch movements without a case begging to be converted...

 

I’m convinced that this would be best set into a pocket watch case. I just have to find one now or I supposed, make one. The hair spring looks like it has gum in it. Actual, gum. That’s going to be fun to clean.

 

It looks like my movement is a touch different than Phil's. That means The bridge pivots of my seconds and intermediate wheels are jeweled though the mainplate side is not. This leads me to believe that someone replaced the the steel bushings in the bridge at some point. The post through the center hole on mine does not have a square end (it is round and only slightly domed) like Phil's. His is likely a replacement part from a key set movement. The biggest difference is that mine has a serial number of 40143 which means that if it is made by the same maker it is older than Phil's (#42390) but possibly only by a year or two.

I've begun the cleaning and trouble-shooting phase on my movement.

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The first finds are with the balance wheel assembly. The hair spring was VERY dirty and looked like it might have had some Rodico putty stuck in it with the dirt/grease. To make matters worse, both pivots were ben

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A few baths in the "One-Dip" cleaner did the trick for the hair spring. The wheel itself could use a little sprucing up with a fibre brush though.

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After quite a while of gently working the pivots with my favorite brass tweezers, they are looking nice and true! I will give both of them and the outer wall of the staff a good polish before final reassembly. Yes, I see the little hair/fuzz on the hairspring in the top photo. Looks like it could use a few more passes through the cleaner. The staff has little wear marks in the edges of the wall where the escape teeth slide. Hopefully that won't be an insurmountable issue later one and require a new staff to be installed.

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Rich,
Just an FYI, the jewel configuration may be factory spec - basically a 7J made to look better with possibly some minor benefit: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/reason-for-11j.7245/ . Although, your explanation is as likely.

Regards,
Art S.

PS, I respect that you are fixing the 'grocery getter' Chevy Vega in the junk yard rather than the Ferrari! I think its pretty cool and more challenging to fix a worn cheap watch than something better made and fully jeweled!

 

The jeweling for the sake of jeweling thought had crossed my mind. It looks like someone tried to service it once by adding a lot of some kind of oil pretty much everywhere. The jewels do appear to have been rubbed in from the bottom of the bridge though, so perhaps they are original. Either way, I'm leaving them in place.

 

I believe I’ve figured out what happened to those balance staff pivots. It looks like the balance cock got hit pretty hard. (Notice the bent banking pin in the first photo)

Before:
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After:
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My movement is running until it goes “dial-up”. It would appear that the balance cock was bent to accommodate a repair which made the balance staff shorter than original. As you turn it over and the balance seats into the upper jewels, the escape wheel locks up against the opening in the staff/cylinder.

I could try to replace the staff/cylinder or bend the cock back to how it was to accommodate the issue. My other though though is to file/sand/machine the lower surface of the balance cock’s foot to remove the excess material and bring the jewels to the proper height. I’m not sure which would be the right move at this point so I’ve been holding off until I can get some more studying in.

 

I dare you to make a new staff! :*)
Actually, don't, based on your prior photos it doesn't look broken. Check the position and condition of all four balance jewels. There is either a break or something is too far out (probably on the cock jewels).
Regards,
Art S.

 

One of the first principles is to modify the part to the watch but never the watch to the part (if at all possible).

I have two thoughts about the cylinder escapement watch (so you may be in luck). 1) most cylinder staffs are not one piece and both ends with the pivots are called tampons and they are press-fit into the body of the cut-out cylinder. It therefore may be possible to back-out one end a little. I believe special tools are needed and I have not done this. There is risk at breaking the cylinder because being cut-out there is not a lot of structure and it can snap easily. Still it is always a three piece affair. 2) you may be able to use a jewel press and set the balance jewel a little closer. However, the cap jewel must follow and this may be a rubbed-in jewel (I didn't look at your pic closely) and/or may not have freedom to move. In a pinch the ledge it sits on could be very lightly milled lower with a graver on a lathe or perhaps a mill but this is modifying the watch to the part....Filing the end of the cock is not a good move, nor is bending it but I must admit for trivial adjustments I have bent a few up or down. One has to consider the safety of the other options on an antique piece with no parts availability....