American "Quality" why is it so poor

1. "title"
2. cool username
3. welcome
4. I speculate that it is based on the idea of "designed obsolescence", in that a product doesn't have to be well made since there will be a new model replacing it every year.

 

Because people don't pay attention to or take pride in what they're doing and end up making mistakes. See your post for at least 3 examples.

 

Because it's cheaper.

 

Because the average American buyer cares more about price then quality and will pick the "cheaper" choice every time...then whine about the lack of quality. The average buyer also can't spell title...(just kidding just kidding...my spelling is horrible too!)

 

That's a pretty broad generalization. Many American products are the best in their field but where quality and design are 2nd or 3rd rate, the standard answers are: corporate focus on short term profit (due to exec performance-based bonuses & stockholder and market pressure); decision by committee; decision by bean counters rather than designers and engineers; and high labor costs forcing cuts in order to compete globally.

 

Because over here bigger is better, whereas across the pond they concentrate more on packaging, which yields an incredibly more efficient and efficient feeling product. Too many people over here could give a crap less about the feel of their dash dials or look of the interior material, or even the body panel gaps on the exterior. It's all about appearance (i.e., status), and a car does not have to be designed and executed well for that to happen. Just slap some 22's on it and you're good to go.

 

Frankly,

GM did build the best for many years. They have made and often still make very fine products:

A late 50's Cadilac is very impressive for what it is (including automatically dimming headlights!).

GM V8s did pretty well in many applications.

It is difficult to beat an American Pick-up for utilitarian function.

A Dodge viper is a re-creation of a Shelby Cobra - it is intended to be powerful, raw and unsophisticated.

GM built a 200 mph Corvette years ago.

That being said, in my opinion, about 35 years ago, they lost their way. I think they are fighting hard to turn things around, but they have built the image you describe and it is tough to counter. Also, unions and pensions mean that they are starting at a loss as compared to Toyota.

Art S.

 

Haha... that was not very nice.

 

I think you are jumping into a subject you know very little about. Also, you come with a biased attitude ---> "no it's not a generalization".

Is this based on experience or a preconceived notion about America and Americans? I used to live in Europe and people always said Americans were "fat and lazy". Well, if we are fat and lazy, how come we outperform every other nation in finance and economics? How come nobody can come close in invention? People always tug on supermans cape - because they're not superman.

This is where the "you don't know what you're talking about" comes into play. The GT was not necessarily in design that whole time. They often show off a prototype, tour it around, then months later get serious about developing a car from it. They also may or may not throw huge resources at it. The GT is NOT a bread and butter car for Ford. They are not going to make it the highest R&D priority at the company - because it's a jewel in the crown, not the crown itself.

Second to that, the 360 was derived from the 355. It's a lot easier to put new siding and heating in your house than to build a whole new house. How long was the Enzo in development?

You bet or you know? Bet to me sounds like "I think thats the case therefore I will claim it is, even if I'm wrong". The Viper was not in development very long. It took a long time for Dodge to move it from prototype to production, which you are probably mistaking for R&D time. How long was the Veyron in design? How long does it take BMW to release the new M3 based on the new 3-series? The new M3 is only a refinement and minor change to the existing 3, so why has the new 3 been out for a year and there is no M3 yet? I guess BMW sucks too, by your rationale?

When someone comes out with a ridiculous position based only on bias and presumption, it's not really about having a discussion, rather starting a fight.

Pray tell, how long did it take? You seem privy to a lot of inside information. When did R&D on the C6 Z06 start and when was it finished? And since when is the C6Z06 not "the best". It outperforms cars that cost much much more, so why can't those other companies come out with a car that outperforms the Z06, even when they cost much more? Is their quality so bad? Why did it take so long to do the Murcielago Roadster? Do they have no conception of engineering and quality? I guess not?

I don't know what Fiat you think can hang with a Z06, but there isn't one.

Europeans have a natural bias against US cars, an US-other-things too. You need to spend a lot of time here and there to see it, which I doubt you have. Since when was the interior in Toyotas so much better? I had a 89 Corvette and an 89 Corolla and the Corvette was a lot nicer inside. My 98 Viper did not have as nice an interior as a 98 F355, but it would also wax the floor with the Ferrari for less than half the price.

So in summary, I think you need to bring a lot more facts to your argument than asserting that your suppositions are true, and demanding that people defend against them. How can I defend against your opinion? The bottom line though is numbers don't lie - what do the foreign car companies offer that is the same price as the Z06 that can compete with it?

 

The short answer is that they've been able to get away with it. But now it is coming back to haunt them in a big way, just look at the trouble they're in. The Honda's and Toyota's can now run rings around them and it is going to be very difficult to catch up. The big three are being crippled by pension plans etc. so it always leaves them paddling up stream.

 

Hey, I'm an American and can ***** all I want about American cars. Generally, they suck. Why?
The driving experience in America consists largely of two things: running short distances - light to light, mall to gas station to home, taking kids to afterschool activities, etc. or highway driving.
The notion of a car that 'handles,' 'corners' and has 'road feel' is lost in favor of 0-60 times, and cruiser comfort.
This has been the way America has made cars since WWII.
It is a commodity, designed by committee, to meet a price point.
Our fascination with SUVs as passenger conveyances proves as much to me. Little style, big on motor size and comfort in a living room sense, drives like a truck but has a cushy suspension and power steering.
What's the future?
Not that. Why else are the American car companies in the toilet?

(And, by the way, even though I have always voiced my respect for the Vette as 'the' American sportscar, you've got to admit that, even now, the interior still looks like a plasticy piece of ****; haven't seen the latest Vipers, but the past ones wouldn't have won any prizes either).

 

Okay, I will open up a can of worms. I believe a Ferrari is a work of art- a driveable work of art that inspires passion and excitement unlike any other vehicle. I cannot hang a classic Ferrari on the wall of my dining room like a painting, but I cannot appreciate the Mona Lisa on the wall of my garage or drive her down the street..
That being said, as a longtime enthusiast and five F-car owner, I am disappointed at the quality and reliability of the marque, as I know all of us are. If you deny this you are lying to yourself ( sorry for the strong language). If Ferraris were as reliable as Corvettes, this website would not be as active. I would estimate conservatively that 70% of all posts are related to reliability issues.
I have also owned several Corvettes and Vipers which I do not consider as works of art, but they have been SO MUCH MORE reliable , dare I say better built as far as quality goes , than any Ferrari I have owned. How many of us have driven our Ferraris 60,000 miles with nothing more than an oil change, not a $5000 belt change completed several times. Timing belt lasting 15000 miles, water pump 20,000 miles. If this was your Ford you would fly to Detroit and start picketing the plant. Go look in your garage.
Do not confuse your passion for art with your unfounded concerns of reliability of American models.

 

GM, Ford, DCX do not have bad quality cars by any means. Its just that some others do it much better!

 

I think we are confusing reliability with quality. I enjoy viewing hand stitched leather interiors and exterior lines unmatched by any automaker on the planet. I equate this with quality. You will never seen this in a robot built mustang.
I had a transmission failure on my 360 with 1200 miles. Unfortunately, this was a common occurence on the majority of the 99-2002 360s. The Mustangs of this era or any other American made cars did not have the reliabilty issues of this magnitude . All I am pointing out is that Ferraris definitely have a reliabilty concern, but its quality is unmatched.
I just traded a $90,000 Range Rover in on a $50,000 Denali because the Range Rover spent more time in the dealers garage than my own. Quality-RR wins. Taking my family to our lakehouse- my young son refused to get in the RR- unreliable. From the mouths of babes. Without stealing the thread, Range Rovers are the biggest POS on the planet. I strongly advise any one with children not to purchase one. They are unsafe!!!!

 

In 1973 I bought a 70' Corvette, it had hidden windshield wipers (covered by a vacuum operated door), pop-up headlights, Head lamp washers, and Fiber optics that monitored all exterior lighting systems, I think it was decades ahead of its time. (I kept it for 23 years (70k+ miles), the most reliable car I've ever owned, including my Lexus)

 

I believe that the United States auto industry converted from "quality" to "quantity". The whole concept is not to make cars, but to make $$$$. The European mentality, is to make a superior product first, then count the money later. I would love to know what the world(of cars) would be like if Duesenberg, Cord and Auburn would have never shut down.

 

ColomboV12 (nice username BTW), you're kind of all over the place with what you are saying so it's hard to counter your statements, but here are some thoughts.

Regarding quality of automotive product, it's a corporate culture thing. Good quality doesn't happen by accident or even with a little bit of effort. Good quality (measured in the number of complaints per unit) only occurs with a LOT of work and effort from a LOT of people in a large organization. And once that work is done it has to be done again. And again. It takes a culture of quality to accomplish.

Regarding the quality of American automotive product, it's true it's lower than the Japanese but I think you're notions of terrible American automotive quality are dated and overblown. When Ford bought Jaguar the quality of the Jaguar brand actually went up not down. The corporate culture of American auto companies has been to make the most number of units available to the most number of people. In the past, quality slipped but I think this is changing. But don't confuse this with a national culture of poor quality. Honda automobiles made in America have roughly the same quality standard as the ones built in Japan.

First off, we Americans don't build too much of anything anymore but if you are talking about products we design then you are very wrong. Check it out:

High End Audio
Apple Computers
Burton Snowboards
Nike
Google
GE Medical
Boeing
Mars Landers that did work x2 (still rolling around as we speak)
Hermon Miller Aeron Chair
etc., etc., etc.

-F

 

America makes some very high quality items. I will only buy american made hand tools, Snap-on for example.

Some of the best home appliances, and kitchen equpiment is American made. Home A/c systems, furances, BBQ's just to name a few. There are a TON of quality made American products out there, but you just don't hear about those.

It seems for some reason American quailty is identified by the automotive business. The big three have in the past built some really poor quality cars, and they have gotten away with it. They figured the cars were selling, and thats enough.

Obiviously things have changed and the big 3 are struggling to win back the buyers they lost, which in most cases is a battle they will never win. Many people switched to an improt because of the terriable experiance they had with a N/A car. Many will never take the risk of returing no matter how good the ratings are for the product, they are soured of life.

But make no mistake, the cars comming out of Detorit currently are probbably the best they have ever made, they have to be. And don't think for one second the America doesn't build quality items, because in the grand sceam of things, they probbably build some of the best most reliable products in the world.

 

I've been in the automotive supply sector for over 20 years, I've been a set-up man, technician, product engineer, engineering manager, quality manager, and now I'm in manufacturing engineering. I've seen and done a lot of different things. There have been several good points relating to why U.S. stuff isn't as good as foreign stuff....but it is a fuzzy line - quality. What does quality mean? Technically...

Quality = Conformance to the Requirements.

So if your requirements are low so then is the product you will get. Our company uses many raw materials, domestic and foreign. And usually the set-up guys and their machines are more productive using Japanese material than they are using U.S. material. You CANNOT go cheap on raw materials, because you can't fix that down the line....it's the "silk purse from a sow's ear" sorta thing.

Quality = "Perception" of the buying public - not necessarily fact.

Some see quality as the materials and textures used. Some see quality if something is shiney and bright. Some see quality if something is built very rugged and lasts forever even if it's not the prettiest thing.

In America it's all about the almighty dollar. Everything...and I mean EVERYTHING revolves around money, and how much you can get. Many workers have the attitude of "that's good enough" or "nobody will notice one or two bad parts in a thousand". And we price our products to get the MAXIMUM profit within the market. Look at what the oil companies do with gas prices. They could price for a modest profit of maybe 10% to 15% but nope...they max it out to whatever the public will pay short of a revolt at the pumps. American cars could be quite a bit cheaper in price, which would be more in line with their "quality" except for overly-high wages, pensions, and benifits, as well as overpaid execs. Wages around the world are in a state of flux as the markets are going global. Water seeks it's own level and that is what wages are doing now. It's not really hard to understand.

Look at the state of health in America...look at the obesity levels. Who would have thought that food companies would formulate their products to addict people to them and cause cravings leading to overeating, not to mention their lack of nutrition. It's all about money and doing just what it takes to get the job done, and NOT about PRIDE IN ONE'S WORKMANSHIP.

Of course there are many exceptions in America, but unfortunately the majority of working people out there just want their paycheck.

But....and this is a BIGGIE...I do think that this situation is changing. I do think that quality levels are increasing in America. They must if they are to compete with foreign companies. We are all becoming aware of how fragile our futures are, and many are stepping up to the plate and improving. We do make many good products in America. And I do agree with TBAKOWSKI that U.S. cars have improved immensely. It will take quite a while for perceptions to change, but in time they will.

 

If Money comes before passion, then that will always be the case of poor quality....