Alrighty then....(pun) Gulfstream III

A Gulfstream is a wonderful aircraft but the operating costs are big. You will exceed this acquisition cost in operating costs by month 18.

A G-IV will be a better deal than a G-III because of noise regulations. Unfortunately G-IIs and G-IIIs, no matter how nice or well maintained, are already coming to a terminal end.

Early G-IVs will cost more to acquire but cost less to operate and continue to have a level of residual value.

Jeff

 

no idea on the accuracy, but here ya go (as a starting point):

http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/op_cost_info.asp?id=127

looks like a nice plane...

 

The fuel cost is off... by a lot!

 

cost, usage or both?

like I said, no idea on the accuracy

 

There are frequently GII's now for less than a cost of the Cessna 172. . The G2's are even more restricted than a G3 as the G3 can be fit with a hush kit so able to get into more places. You can still fly most places, but its a real hassle as there are time windows, and certain airports that restrict your ability ton go in.

In terms of fuel costs, its high. I believe the G2 is burns a bit more than a GIV (and its smaller). It's somewhere around 3500 pph from last recall.

Many operators are buying them and shipping them off to Africa. Most airports there don't have noise ordinances so they are still a viable charter aircraft there. It's a "Gulfstream" and most don't know the difference between gulfstreams.

The real issue of owning a G2/G3 is that gulfstreams maintenance schedule on these old planes is time based. Parts are getting scarce as well. So its not like 2500 hours for an HSI, etc. There are phase checks every 3 months, 6 months etc. So even if you don't fly the airplane its going to cost you maybe 50K/month. . . if you hit an engine overhaul - we're talking 1.2M per engine. . So a buyer last year buying that G2 for 150K had about 2.2M in engine overhaul coming up in the next few hours of operation.. .

So yeah, be very careful of buying these 30-40 year old jets. . It's going to cost you a fortune whether you fly them or not.

 

I would say that the overall hourly and annual costs are severely off. Any calculation needs to be thinking $1.5M + per year, all in - no cost of capital for the aircraft.

I know many of the numbers for the G-IV that I am involved in, and these will be less than for an older aircraft.

It is easy to be seduced by the low acquisition costs of some of the aircraft but the operating costs are killers. A friend once talked about how the acquisition cost could be financed but the operating costs were directly out of pocket monies that hurt.

As comparison - friend operation a VIP 737-300 at 300-400 hrs annually is ecstatic that they are only at $8,500 an hour. "My" G-IV is using $4,500 as its projection. When comparing numbers be very careful to understand what is and is not included; knowing what part of the world the aircraft is operating in also makes for some substantial cost differences too.

Jeff

 

Some of these countries have aircraft age limits for newly imported registrations. Nigeria is 20 years. Some of the traditional dumping grounds for obsolete aircraft aren't anymore.

Jeff

 

Ah, didn't know your starting point. There are lots of choices that would be a nice move up and still have bargains in the market without making the operating cost go stratospheric. Look at Hawker 800, Falcon 50 (check the operating numbers for being 3 engines - offset by the ultimate range you will have), Lear 60, Galaxy SPX/G-100 (smallish cabin but long range plus low fuel burn).

Jeff

 

I just have never been a Citation fan although they do have good operating costs. The build quality, as evidenced by the smoothness of the bare skins, just isn't as good as the others. Falcons are razor straight.

I also tend to like aircraft with longer range and Citations, except the X, are just not coast-to-coast types.

Jeff

 

I'll vouch for that - When I used to work in Bethpage, the company G2 would generally taxi out and take off around 7:30 or so. When it taxied by, it was actually quieter than the Dart-powered G1, but when the pilot put the throttles to it, it was shatteringly loud, undoubtedly a better wakeup call for the nearby homes than any rooster! I'll bet those people were glad when Grumman moved their Gulfstreams down to Republic Airport.....

(I'd say that it sounded like a British Phantom II, but without the afterburners, which would be correct, since the two aircraft shared the same basic engines - Rolls-Royce Speys!)

 

If you can afford to operate a GIII, you can afford to buy a GIV.

If you are coming out of a Lear 35 and looking for something a little bigger, I'd look at a Citation Sovereign. Similar speeds to the 35, longer range, nicer cabin, much much bigger baggage, excellent short field performance, and pretty low fuel burn.

Jeff is incorrect, by the way-- the Sovereign is an easy coast-to-coast airplane, if that's important to you.

Other large cabin aircraft you might consider are a Challenger 601 or 604, or a Falcon 2000 classic.

Keep in mind that with any of the large cabin aircraft, you really need a mechanic on staff. A good mechanic will more than pay for himself on those aircraft. Also keep in mind that all the bills will step up considerably from the Lear.

If you want more capability, but aren't quite willing to step up to large cabin, you might also look at a Lear 60 or a Hawker 800. The Lear 60 has tremendous climb performance, but terrible runway requirements.

What do you want? Bigger cabin? Longer range? More speed?

 

I saw that ad, also, and actually took the time to mull it over. I still feel that charter or fractional is the way to go, but I suppose it all depends on how much time you're spending in the air.

CW

 

For that mission, either a Hawker 800 or a Citation Excel. I'd go with the Excel.

 

Just remember that you'll be spending as much each year to operate that GIII as you spend to buy it.

 

$800k on just an interior?! Didn't realize these things were THAT expensive. Now it makes sense that the chartering/fractional ownership businesses aren't doing too bad. I guess if you live up in the sky, owning your own makes sense...

 

Yes, the operational expenses are over-the-top, but the more you fly, the more your own plane can make sense. After having experience with owning Falcons, we concluded chartering is the way to go. But, we haven't been flying private much for the last 15 years. When we do, it's far more economical to charter than have a fractional even. But, round trip first class is still more economical than any of the above. Unless you've got a big party. Then, maybe it can break even. Heck, I can get to where I need to go for $300 round trip in coach, if I want. Spending $20K to do it on a private is hard to justify, but there are times when it's necessary.

CW

 

$800K is not a complete new interior but a decent level refurbishment with a few upgrades. Just spent a nearly $400,000 on a G-IV for recovering everything and cleaning up the existing woodwork. All the repairs to the interior were beyond that. Recovering 8 chairs in leather with new foam was $112,000.

Move up to the Boeing Business jet and the original outfitting price from nothing inside to a full interior is in the $14M+.

Ownership is generally considered to be financially viable at 300 hours per year although there are many that operate with much lower utilization.

Charters make a lot of sense for a lot of users.

Fractionals are, in many cases, a swap of client's money for convienence. They are not necessarily the best financial deal.

Jeff

 

How is this remotely possible? I mean, its great that a company can find someone to pay that much, but that is a cost of $14,000 PER CHAIR!!

Is there some extra expensive aviation grade, FAA approved foam and leather that they have to use? Or did this owner use some super exotic pygmy bald eagle skin for their leather or something?

I have had several car and boat seats done over the years, and had one set of seats completely re-done with all new foam and Connolly leather and it was barely a tenth of that cost.

I have also done a lot of wood work and can't fathom paying $800K for new leather and re-finishing the wood.

 

Yes.

 

Figures.

Sounds like I may need to get into the FAA-approved foam business.

Seriously, how much difference is the quality and type of your foam and leather going to make if you are unlucky enough to crash into a mountainside at 300 mph?