Alonso's fate gets complicated

Gurney won 4 GPs and was the driver most feared by Jimmy Clark. He also twice finished 2nd in the Indy 500 and won 5 NASCAR events. He was far more than merely a sports car driver, some would argue he is the best American F1 driver in history, Mario and Phil Hill notwithstanding. I wouldn't go that far myself but I would rank only Mario ahead of him.

 

McLaren won 10 GPs in 2005, most folks would consider that to be a competitive car, yes?

 

Facts have a certain way of dismantling arguments.

 

LOL

I nominate this as the most ridiculous post of the year. I haven't seen anything so patently fawning as that youtube video of the nutcase crying over Britany Spears.

 

I don´t rate the late Niki Lauda as the smartest person around there, but to be fair, he failed where everybody else did, so maybe the problem of that team was not in the manager. Who knows...

 

They called him "The computer" in his driving days and he flew 747s for a living. Can't be that dumb.

 

IMO. If your just looking from a more surface aspect of the 05 season, then the answer would most likely be yes. However, I was looking at it on more of a reliability vantage point. Six of the first 12 races of 05 Kimi, (imo) the only Mac driver that had a chance at the WDC, failed to place higher than 8th including 2 DNF's due to reliability and one DNF due to Indy. Compare that to FA's first 12 races where he only placed lower than 3rd 3 times including two DNF's. Only one of those DNF's was due to the car the other due to Indy. Mac finally started getting their act together with reliability/competitiveness towards the end of the season. Too little too late. IMHO...FA's Renault was far more reliable/competitive than Kimi's Mac. Only because of Kimi's talant was he able to stay as close to FA in the points.

I know you disagree with me and that's totally fine. As usual, we'll just simply agree to disagree.
This was just my opinion and I wanted you to know where I was coming from.

 

True, depending upon one's interpretation of the facts.

IMHO, of course

 

Fact: The McLaren was competitive.

 

Reality : but fragile

 

Exactly....very fragile

 

Yes, but:

1. I said: the "later" Niki Lauda.
2. He can fly a jet plane and still be dumb for other things.
3. Hell, he said a few really dumb things lately.

Great driver, one of my favourites, but...

 

True. Part of which I attribute to his keen interest to stay in the media. And it seems to work. Isn't he like the oldest F1 driver actively involved at this point?

 

Mario is not an America, he is an Italian that moved to America and yes probably has American citizenship. IMO he is one of the very best Italian drivers.

And yes Dan Gurney was a top league driver.
Pete

 

Lauda is not a young man ... when your his age and continually misquoted and asked for opinions when you don't really give a damn, how smart will you look then?

I suggest you ready Laudas biography ... fascinating person who has more drive than 10 normal people!
Pete

 

He moved to the US with his family as a child, he grew up in Nazareth PA, he carries an American passport and he raced in F1 under the US flag. He is as American as anyone else here.

 

Yeah, just like Australia claims anybody that moves here and is successful

If that does not make Dan one of the most successful US born driver then bugger if I know what the poor guy has to do . I guess only Phil Hill would out rank him as he bagged a WDC.

I personally rate Mario as the best modern Italian (or American ... but that's hardly difficult as there has been so few American F1 drivers) driver ... so far no Italian driver since has got anywhere near him.
Pete

 

Completely idiotic statement.

He is an American driver, not an Italian one. I moved to the USA more than 20 years ago, and I consider myself American through and through - regarless of where I was born.

 

True. I have have lived in the country of Florida for 20+ years, but I am still an American. Hablo anglasio (realted to Julio).

 

Opinion ...

... I moved to Australia about 12 years ago, I'm still a New Zealander and always will be, even if I get Australian citizenship. You can't change where you were born and why would you want to?. Thus I'm proudly a New Zealander.

Thus it all depends on how you define what being an "American/Australian/New Zealander" means. To me it means where you were born, but to you it means where you are currently living. Legally I believe it's your citizenship, thus if Mario (as suggested already) has dual citizenship then I'm right calling him an Italian, and you are also right calling him an American ... .
Pete

 

I think that you are making the mistake of speaking for the man based on your own personal beliefs on the matter. I have found that many people who move from one place to another later in life still consider themselves to be whatever their birthplace was. But for Mario, I think its pretty convincing he's American. First he moved here as a kid, spent most of his life (by far!) in the USA. Second, he took the time to become a citizen, something he did not have to do at all. Third, he has the money and time to live anywhere in the world and chooses to live in the USA. So who are we to argue with his choice? He's made it plain for all to see.

IMO it's the same as Alexander Graham Bell. He was born in Scotland, but moved to America in his early 20's. Many British people still like to call him British, even though he only became a great man when he came to the USA, and made a point to let everyone know he considered himself American, not British.

So I think its utterly fair to call Mario an American driver, with no asterisk, no footnote and no followup explanation needed.

As for OZ/NZ, you guys have had this love/hate thing going for years so I can see why a NZer would live in OZ but still call himself a NZer

 

Also, Mario does not have duel citizenship. When you becoem a citizen of the USA you explicitly renounce all other citizenships, which he has done when he took the oath of naturalization, so even if Italy still would/could provide him a passport, he has officially renounced his Italian citizenship. Not his heritage, of course, but his citizenship for sure!

 

All good points.

Pete

 

Not true. I live in the diplomatic world here in Europe. The State Dept of the US has since rescinded the requirement that you give up your rights to citizenship another nation upon taking US citizenship. The oath is still on the books but is not enforceable. I have friends who are from Eastern Europe and those countries will allow you to maintain your birth nation status even if you take the US citizenship.
Department of State in the US has not broadcast this loudly but the laws of the US do not over-ride the intent of other States to allow a citizen of origin the right to maintain status.
In no way from my research and experience is dual citizenship dis-allowed in the US. Its quite common actually.