Abarth chassis number plates

Hi Jim, AFAIK, Abarths (at least 600 based ones) also had a serial number stamped into the body in the engine compartment. This was the case in a Record Monza I once owned. I think, but may be wrong, that the number stamped into the bodies is an Abarth number and does not relate to the numbers on the ID plate.

I bought a repro ID plate for an 850TC nurburgring replica I am building, and am not going to stamp any numbers into it. It is not an Abarth, and would be difficult to be made into a 100% true "replica", and I would say it is more "in the likeness" of an Abarth. Therfore, I think it would be an insult to try and pretend it is a real Abarth by stamping the ID plate.

As for the difference in letter styles, perhaps the different workers had their own sets of stamps in their toolboxes?

Regards,
Gil

 

Hi Jim. Talk about ID plates, I just noticed this auction on Italian ebay, for a 63 Abarth. This is a good example of what happens out there.

http://cgi.ebay.it/ABARTH-1000-ORIGINALE-NO-REPLICA_W0QQitemZ120039161856QQihZ002QQcategoryZ18305QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It looks like a fake/fraud to me. Why is the ID plate attached mounted on the dash? Lots of things are wrong, like fender flares, the front rad. bulge, rear deck lid props, numerous engine bay details and the doors should be suicide doors. The engine is either an A112 or 903cc, but the photo of the cylinder head has a 600/600D number on it. I am guessing that the ID plate and head are from a real Abarth and the car is a fake.

Add that to a zero feedback rating for the seller and it smells of scam. If you are going to buy an Abarth, you really need to research the ID numbers along with correct period parts and modifications.

Regards,
Gil

 

Jim,

Just noticed this thread while searching for something else. Unfortunately, neither of your sample photos opening this thread appear to show original Abarth ID plates and neither has stampings that I would call characteristic of period Abarth work. I've actually seen one of them in person and believe the car, if legitimately "Abarth" at all, to be quite likely one of the Cisitalia-Argentina marketed cars that was later repatriated back to Italy where I saw it on display a number of years ago in Romano d'Ezzelino in the Bonfanti Museum during what I recall was a Zagato display. Probably have some photos around but they may be pre-digital?

In short, you would be wise to be skeptical of any ID plate that seems "too new" but even that is not enough. It is not difficult to age these kinds of parts and give them some patina that can be misleading. So, if one wants to be absolutely sure, you have to find one of those rare instances when a car is truly well documented and even then may have to take a bit of a gamble that any assumptions made are actually correct.

There are some cars that are simply known as having history because they've been known so long, i.e. before anybody was "faking" certain details, but many of them have histories that have not yet been described with any actual detail. We can merely say something like, "Yeah, that car's been around since 1972, but nobody knew where it came from even then. In fact, nobody cared! It was just a cool car that didn't get scrapped for some reason."

John

 

Jim:
I might be able to be of some help. I know that my 1000gt has original plates because there have been only three owners and the history is clear. This weekend I'll take some photos and get them to you.

It would be nice to find a car with matching chassis and engine, but with what I have seen of Abarths, it is more likely that the car doesn't have it's original engine, for a variety of reasons. Now I am fairly new to Abarths, and it's sometimes complicated as Abarth made so many different cars and variants, so someone please correct me if anything I post is incorrect.

Many Abarths with rear radiators overheated and blew head gaskets. Dirt accumulated in the radiator because of it's location and the overheating was common. So many times the engine was just replaced with another engine.
Another problem occured when engines were overrevved because the tiny engines spin so freely that it doesn't take much distraction to spin the engine past redline. If parts in the engine failed, the owner may have again replaced it with another engine, especially if the block was cracked.

So it seems to me that it's probably just fine if the car you buy doesn't have the original engine but does have the "correct" engine. Or you could buy the car you like, even with the wrong type engine and then find the correct engine, like I did with my Record Monza.

It had a 1050cc Fiat engine, and through some research I found that it had an 850S pushrod engine as original. So I was able to find a correct age engine from an 850TC that would have been the same engine that came in my car. In this case it had the Abarth crankshaft, pistons, headbolts, etc. that made it a true Abarth engine. The trick is to source an engine that doesn't just look like an Abarth engine, but has the internal parts that made the difference between a Fiat engine and an Abarth engine.

Early Abarths with pushrod engines will be the easiest engines to find, and still not real easy at that. The twin cam engines and later all Abarth engines will be nearly impossible to find, and if you can find one, a correct twin cam engine, ready to run can cost $40,000 plus. Other all Abarth engines would cost even more, if you found one. So if you found an Abarth with a twin cam engine that wasn't original to the car, you would not be buying something that had a detrimental aspect to it. It could be just as valuable to a collector as a car with it's original engine, as long as it's "correct" for the car.

There are some Abarth enthusiasts who are much more knowledgeble than me who could give you some further information on all this, but the beauty of a coachbuilt Abarth is that they have rarely been replicated, so you won't have to worry too much about getting a real Abarth, even if the number plate was missing or stamped on a new plate. As rare as these cars are, I wouldn't pass up a car that I may not see on the market again for several years just because it did not have it's original engine, or a re-stamped plate.

Scott

 

Jim:
I took some pictures of the plates this past weekend, but the camera was left at my bldg., so I will have to get it this weekend and get some pics to you next week.
Scott

 

Still don't have the quality pic you need for comparison. My pictures were not clear, I will have to re-take with my Nikon, it can get a closer focus. Will have to get to you after Thanksgiving.
Scott

 

Here's a picture of an Allemano Abarth i.d. number. Not sure of authenticity, but may be good for comparison; the photo is clear.
Scott
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Here is a picture of my 1000gt plate. It was hard to get enough light on the plate for the picture, but it's not too bad.
Scott
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Sorry Scott,

After all this anticipation, as well as your efforts, I'm sorry to inform you that this is also not a representative sample of a period Abarth ID plate stamping. It seems to have been quite in vogue to "refresh" those details during restorations over the last several years when those plates have been available quite readily.

I will also make the observation that there were a great number of Fiat 600-derived cars (Allemano, Zagato, etc) that never had Abarth plates but which maintained their Fiat plates instead. Some of those cars have acquired "Abarth" plates over the years as well ... when they are not actually "original" to those cars ... even if they do look good ... if properly stamped.

Personally, I'd rather see a car with no plate at all than see one with a plate that is not original. It is simply distracting to have to ignore an incorrectly done facsimile. I could be in the minority but I'd rather see the original (hopefully) metal under the faux plate. If the chassis number is stamped correctly on the chassis, that should be enough for all but "Pebble" ... which is arguably not an appropriate venue today for cars that were made to such a relatively low price-point.

John

 

John:
What did you think of the plate for the Allemano coupe that I posted above my plate? I think we need someone to post a plate that can possibly verified as original. John, maybe you can post a picture of what you are describing as an original type stamping. That way we can study the letter and number style for differences and similarities. I'm really quite confused about these plates as my 850TC also has a different looking stamping than both the ones I posted. The numbers are more impressed in the metal, although the typeface is more like the Allemano plate. If the typeface is the same from plate to plate, the amount of impression can be explained by the pressure lent upon the hammer by the person making the stamping. Of course, the factory could have had different typeface on different sets of stamping tools, so the only way to make some progress is to get some more pictures and see if we can find some concensus among various plates.
Who can post some more Abarth plates?
Scott

 

Obviously, if the owner has some history, you can do some checking. Perhaps joining Abarth Enthusiasts Worldwide (Google 'em) or the Abarth 'Yahoo Group' will give you access to people who can help with the history and identification of a car you may be interested in? Coachbuilt cars are going to be much more difficult to fake than standard 500/600/850 bodies cars, but their recent hike in value may have seen some wrecks cobbled together for a quick buck.

In any case, here or on AlfaBB you have access to some very wise people (not including myself) who may be able to help too. There are also a few specialist brokers who can put you onto the right car.

Good luck with your search.

Cheers,
Duane

 

I am new to this so I hope this message actually ends up with you!! I hope that I have attached a photo of the Abarth chassis plate on my Record Monza. This chassis plate has been on the car to my certain knowledge since 1967 I certainly don't beleive anyone would have faked it then since the car was new in 1960'ish. It was a cheap car then not worth anyones while. After all I as ayoung penniless Architect could afford one and a wife and two kids. It was rough when I bought it as you can see from the photo.
I believe that Abarth Chassis numbers are those of the Fiat Chassis as delivered from Fiat and stamped on the engine bay bulkhead left side. So the number on the plate should be the same as the Fiat number. Done for the obvious reason that it would be easier to make the car legal in most countries if it could be called a FIAT. Mine is actually registered as a Fiat with the Abarth part as the model. And that was before crash tests and all that sort of rigmarole.
It is not just that simple though, there is a little trick to this, which I am prepared to let you know privately and anyone else that is genuinely interested in knowing how to tell if they really do match. I don't want to publish it to all the world it would only make life more difficult for people seeking the truth of the numbers they are seeing and easier for the fakers. After all anything seems easily fakeable nowadays since there is now so much money in it.
SALUt
RONK

 

I have finally gone over this thread a bit more thoroughly.

Starting from the top of the thread going post by post and will list each ID plate shown under its posting number and location:

Posting #2: left-hand photo: The stampings appear to be done more more amateurishly than most original Abarth plates. Aside from this detail, the Tipo "1000" seems a bit unlikely for a car with this chassis number even though the identity is claimed for a Monomille of 1961 even though the Fiat chassis number dates from 1958. The engine number stamped on the plate makes no sense whatsoever and does not match the engine number claimed for the "1961 Monomille" already mentioned. All of these observations do not make the car's origins as an Abarth impossible. The ID plate might even be "original" under a couple of unlikely scenarios. Some effort would be required to understand the who, when and why of the plate's origins if one wishes to believe that it is an original Abarth piece.

Posting #2: right-hand photo: I have to correct a previous statement made by myself in my first posting on this thread. I spoke off the top of my head and should have double-checked first. It is not the car that I saw in Italy even though it resembles it closely in some ways. This actual car has been reported to my files and it claims to be a Cisitalia-Argentina built car. This is not proven to me but is a possibility and warrants a discussion of its own to understand how complex that situation might be. However, a Cisitalia-Argentina car would not have an Abarth ID plate under any normal circumstances. About the only thing that would justify the "legitimate existence" of an Abarth ID plate would be if Abarth had imported the car from Argentina or issued the plate (with a new Certificate of Origin) as a favor to a friend. However, the engine number that is stamped on the plate is not a correct representation of a Cisitalia-Abarth engine number. It might be thought of as "correct" if the number stamped had an "S" in place of the digit "5". Even though no other similar engine has yet been identified with an "086S" prefix! So, even if the plate had been stamped in a correct manner, I would still have to doubt its authenticity because of the obvious error.

Posting #12: The plate looks OK and "probably original" to me. That said, not all genuine Abarth ID plates look like this!

Posting #13: The plate appears to be non-Abarth in origin. This is supported by the fact that the information stamped on the plate is not typical of the kind of information that appears on other Abarth ID plates for cars of this type.

Posting #18: top: looks "OK" to me although the missing digits are a bit distracting.

Posting #18: 2nd down: probably an aftermarket "Abarth" plate.

Posting #18: 3nd down: probably an aftermarket "Abarth" plate.

Posting #18: bottom: probably an aftermarket "Abarth" plate.

Once again, the nature of the originality (or not) of an Abarth ID plate is no guarantee of looking at a genuine or non-genuine "Abarth" car. It would be nice to think that you could believe the information on the plate, whatever the origins, but this is clearly not always the case. So, like all the other characteristics, the ID plate should be thought of only as a clue and you should be looking at all sorts of clues.

Another reminder. It is my strong impression that Abarth ID plates have been added to many Abarth cars that never had them originally. Many Abarth cars were sold on their original Fiat ID plates and this sufficed (and was sometimes preferable) to having the confusion of having two ID plates from different manufacturers!

Good luck!

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

 

Hi guys, I am making my Abarth replica from Zastava 750 (Fica),and in my country (Serbia) is almost imposible to find aftermarket Abarth plates and parts,becouse paypal don't work for my country, I can't by it on ebay. so smoe parts I make my solf,some are original abarth parts etc. would anybody be kind to scan for me his abarth number plates? That would be very helpful for me to make them for my car...I just want to have them in the car,not to stamp them. I will put them next to my original car number plates.

 

it's on a 850tc. It matches the stamp on firewall. Thanks
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Never seen no Abrath plate!

Seriously, the plate appears as if it could be original from Abarth. The numbers "make sense" and this photo seems a good beginning to learning more. BUT ...

A true sense of history and origin for a car cannot be delivered by a single ID plate. I've seen genuine manufacturer plates with numbers stamped by Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Fiat, Ferrari, Maserati, Moretti and more that were separated from cars that were parted out and eventually destroyed. I've seen others that were merely separated from their cars.

There should be another "ABA" or "ABARTH" number present on the car as well. Perhaps on the vertical panel that acts as an inner-fender panel to the left of the engine? It seems the location can vary a bit. Then there should be additional characteristics and paperwork that supports the identity as an Abarth instead of a Fiat. We don't mind if there are some ties to the Fiat origins but there should also be something that says "Abarth" in a comforting manner that is also convincing. If not, then you will need to share additional details with those who know early TC cars. They are not the same as later TC cars and not all were precisely equal in any case.

I see what appears to be a relatively modern fuel pump and plastic clamps that cannot be original to an early Abarth TC.

Please share more.

Best of luck.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

 

I found a picture of a stamp on the intenet that looks like what you are referring to. I'll check the car for one when I view it again. I also read that abarth put a solex 32 PBIC carb on its cars as well as a extra radiator, springs, rear disc brakes, steering wheel, and special hinges for hood. These might have been optionial.

Next visit I'll look for:
Paperwork with car
ABA or ABRATH stamped on car
solex 32 carb
Check for rear disc brakes
springs
radiator
And the hinges

Any more places or item that would verify this car would be appreciated.
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This is a photo of a plate of an unmolested, Italian registered Abarth Record Monza. Some things to note:

- the chassis number should also be stamped into the engine compartment above the plate.
- if it is a Corna bodied car, it will have a number written in (blue?) crayon on the back of the interior trim parts and bulkheads. It will probably be somewhere between 1 and 100.
- I'm not sure what marks Zagato would have made, if any.
- a couple of the Record Monzas I have seen other than mine also have a steel batch number stamped in the metal on the front bulkhead but may be obscured by grime.

Hope this helps
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