A few more asking prices from the "golden years" | Page 7 | FerrariChat

A few more asking prices from the "golden years"

Discussion in 'Vintage Ferrari Market' started by bannishg, Sep 9, 2012.

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Page 7 of 13
  1. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    Greg
    #151 bannishg, Jul 3, 2013
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  2. 335s

    335s Formula Junior

    Jan 17, 2007
    870
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    T. Monma
    #152 335s, Jul 3, 2013
    I lived in the next town over-across 128-Lincoln at the time...at this time, o nly 617 and 413 were the 2 area cosed for the whole commonwealth.

    the ONLY guy in that arera, at that time that I can think of who would've had a car like this...would've been the "saab/alpha guys" who was 1957 "E" production modified National sccs champion(in a 500 Mondial S!?)...was Gaston "Gus" Andrey?

    There was a guy I knew 30 years ago who owned High Performance cars before Serge Dermaian(that was the story), which at the time was a hole in the wall(serge probably NOT in US at that time?)who was from Detroit area...John Finlayson I think-who had told me an off the cuff about a butt ugly 340 with a broken crank that they'd tried to weld backtogether around 20 years prior(time frame all fits), and locations are within minutes based on geography here...

    As they story went, it got welded, noodled back together-NOBODY elde could be found who would touvh the thing(remember the era here)-and never quite ran smoothly again..it always was a tad out of degreed perfection, tbhus slightly shook no matter the balance job.

    After 2-3 trys at rectifying the problem, the car was "sold off"....how many butt ugly 340s were ever in waltham area?

    As an ironic annecdote: the 1 and only roadster sat next to a couplke GP blown Bugs and a Horch and Maybach up in topsfield for a couple of decades...
    funny stuff from almost 40-50 years ago....
    alot of racing in Beverly and CT in this era....
     
  3. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    Greg
    #153 bannishg, Jul 3, 2013
    These stories are great! All happening within a stone's throw from, or even in the very town in which I still reside! Albeit this was 20 - 30 yrs before I was born (1988).

    My father graduated from HS in '68, college in '72, and may have been in a position to afford some of these cars at the last 5-6 years of the "cheap Ferrari days" (1968 - 73). At least he could've afforded them in theory, as general maintenance and upkeep would've easily broke the bank of a teacher making $7000 a year.

    I have several NYT ads from a Vermont collector in the early 60s offering the best of the pre-war Bugattis, (GP's, Atalantes, pretty much everything short of the Royale), and he always had at least 4 per ad. He often began each ad with "I need space, must sell", and you'd see T37's and T57's at around $1,500!
     
  4. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2008
    480
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    Greg
    #154 bannishg, Jul 4, 2013
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  5. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2001
    4,108
    #155 Tenney, Jul 4, 2013
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  6. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    Greg
    #156 bannishg, Jul 10, 2013
    LucasFilms, late 1972, perhaps this is for the filming of American Graffiti? A Duesenberg sold for a record $90,000 that year, and a driveable 12-year-old Detroit car was still $50, as it was when a used Duesenberg was under $1,000. Thanks for the post!
     
  7. Tenney

    Tenney F1 Rookie
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    #157 Tenney, Jul 11, 2013
    Indeed. Conspicuous in its absence from the list is Falfa's '55, which went on to become James Taylor's money-maker in "Two-Lane Blacktop".

    Maybe the '61 Ford is 75 bucks because they couldn't be bothered with putting axle back on?

    Duesey's were kinda the 250 GTO of this timeframe, weren't they?
     
  8. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #158 bannishg, Jul 11, 2013
    Perhaps that car was not titled to the studio, or was accounted for on a separate invoice. Also the film was released in August 73, so maybe it was acquired slightly later than the date on the document, though I'd assume that filming couldn't have gone too far into 73 if it did at all.

    In terms of monetary value and speculation, I would say yes. Obviously it was coveted for different reasons, and there were probably notable differences in the ways they appreciated.

    Notably, when that document was printed, it would only be two months before Hitler's armored Mercedes Kompressor would sell for $150,000, a price so utterly astrological at the time, it made headlines worldwide.
     
  9. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    Greg
    #159 bannishg, Jul 17, 2013
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  10. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #160 bannishg, Jul 18, 2013
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  11. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

    Oct 6, 2008
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    Greg
    #161 bannishg, Aug 7, 2013
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  12. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    #162 ersatzS2, Aug 7, 2013
    Sorry to come late to the thread, likely folks have already had their calculators out, but:
    If you'd bought that GTS for $29K and sold it this summer for $1.2M, you'd have earned ~12.3% IRR on your money.
    Hmm. I'm going to read the rest of the thread...
     
  13. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #163 bannishg, Aug 7, 2013
    Pretty good, but I'm sure you'll see much more dramatic examples as you browse.

    And yeah, I'm aware of Microsoft shares in 86, Walmart shares in 70, etc.... People always tend to bring these up to counter the return on vintage Ferraris. Does your 27 year-old stock certificate have as much sex-appeal? Is there a Pebble Beach, Concours or some other exclusive event where people show off copies of their stock portfolios?
     
  14. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    #164 ersatzS2, Aug 8, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
    I'm surprised that so little academic work has been done by economists on collectibles in general, cars in particular. (If it exists, I haven't found it in decades of casual searches)

    Timing is important: If you bought in 1989 at the top of the 80's market prior to the crash in prices, you didn't do so well. Post #122 has a '67 GTC for $325K and a '59 California for $1.5M. Selling at $650K and $6M today, you'd only have earned 3% and 5% respectively, not great against 30-year stock returns of ~7-10%.

    A demand curve is made up of things like: # of participants, income/wealth, and 'prevailing conditions.' Unless/until those variables change meaningfully, there is no reason to expect the price of collectible anything to rise/fall beyond the rate of inflation. It is interesting to speculate what of those three variables changed to cause the sharp rise in collector car values beginning in 2010...

    I would love to see if there is a 'normalized' collector car long-term return that could be used in a regression analysis to determine whether cars were truly 'under' or 'over' valued relative to broader markets.

    Apologies for any offense to longtime participants in this thread, I don't mean to over-indulge in a vulgar cars-as-investments meditation. I'll defend my car-guy credentials to anyone, but I'm also a professional investor and am fascinated by the vicissitudes of car pricing over the decades...


    Edit: searching thread for most dramatic appreciation case study: post #79 GTO for $10,950 today worth $50M(?) yields IRR ~19.6%
     
  15. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #165 bannishg, Aug 8, 2013
    How about one of the other GTO ads, on the very first page (from 1968), offered at $6,500?
    In this case the IRR would be roughly 22%.

    What about GTO #3223? The car was sold at a Baltimore City Auction in 1969, for an incredible $2500. This gives an IRR of 25.25%. This was certainly an exception, the car, even then, would've brought much more in the right venue (probably still 4 figures, likely around what was being asked for the first example, $6.5k).

    The same car would be offered for sale in 1975 at $35k, giving 21.07%

    There would be another GTO in 1978 at $90k, now 19.8%

    More Examples:
    1980 - $195k = 18.31%
    1983 - $300k = 18.6%
    1985 - $650k = 16.78%
    1987 - $1.6M = 14.16%
    1990 - $13M = 6.04%
    1996 - $2.5M = 19.27%
    2000 - $6.5M = 17%
     
  16. ersatzS2

    ersatzS2 Formula Junior
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    #166 ersatzS2, Aug 8, 2013
    Yep, I did that one first and then couldn't find it again to cite! And thanks for the other numbers. 25% IRR over that timeframe is hard to beat in any asset class. Really interesting data now that I've had a chance to read through, thanks so much for compiling. For some cars we probably have sufficient 'N' to actually build some models. It would be fascinating to plot over extended timeframes, then to draw correlations across marques and time periods. ie I think I read once the first car to break the $1M mark at auction was a Mercer Raceabout in the sixties, which today would bring barely double that.

    Then there is the massive trough where values languished between '90 and 2010. That was a period that certainly separated the 'investors' from the 'enthusiasts.'
     
  17. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #167 bannishg, Aug 8, 2013
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  18. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    #168 375+, Aug 8, 2013
    The listing for the Lusso s/n 5471 is especially timely, it is Lot 247 in the RM auction at Monterrey. Funny they didn't use this ad in the catalog description.
     
  19. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #169 bannishg, Aug 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    As far as I've seen, they seldom if ever refer to ads in their descriptions. The most detail they'll get into would be "the car was offered for sale in 1977", where they might mention the month if they're generous. Even rarer still is when they mention past selling prices, but I can understand this, because it can indirectly have an effect on the bidding spirit.

    Also a note on #0486M, (750 Monza with the Monteverdi rebody):

    The car did not sell easily, chiefly because the Monteverdi body was not appealing to those looking to vintage race, but also because the asking price was arguably way too high at the time. The seller was falsely presuming that the custom body enhanced the appeal when it was actually the other way around.

    Seven months later, at the Christie’s Geneva Motor Show auction in March 74, the car ultimately sold for SFr. 27,000, which works out to less than $9,000 US at the avg exchange rate for that month.
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  20. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    Greg
    #170 bannishg, Aug 15, 2013
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    ...
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  21. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #171 bannishg, Aug 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tried to get a more diverse range of models and years in this one...

    Look at the big price on 0268AM! The early team cars were in greater demand than the GTO's and the Prototype racers in the early 70s, as evidenced by a price here exceeding either one! Plus this one had a very expensive restoration done. In driveable unrestored shape the price would be under half this price. #0350AM was being offered in good original condition for $25,000 in Feb. 75.
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  22. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #172 bannishg, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Tried to include some ones relevant to the auction that everyone is wagging tongues about.

    Price on #10749 was 90k to 100k US.

    Greg
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  23. ag512bbi

    ag512bbi F1 Veteran
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    #173 ag512bbi, Aug 19, 2013
    I keep saying this: This is the best thread on the site! THANK YOU!!!!!
     
  24. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    #174 tongascrew, Aug 19, 2013
    Any idea what this is.Typo on the chassis #0006 M? Not like Obrist. tongascrew
     
  25. bannishg

    bannishg Formula Junior

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    #175 bannishg, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I think he was correct here, only problem is the terseness of the ad, for this being such an important and early car (March 1949). According to the registry, #0006M is a 166 MM Touring Barchetta Lusso, RHD.

    Car ran in the Mille Miglia twice, 1949 by Vaccari (34th/6th) and 1951 by Stoppini (DNF). Some time in the late 50s, an American living in France (Don Jetter ?) purchased it for only $1,500 US.

    For any fans of the Canadian prog rock group Rush, the 166MM was the inspiration of the song "Red Barchetta" from their 1981 album "Moving Pictures".

    Here are some more goodies:
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