there is inside also a relais with a fuse. once this was blown on my car but it took me loooong time until I found this. so I modified this so, that the fuse could be inspected and changed from outside without removing or opening this box. I will try later to find a photo
OK my 10A relay fuse was not blown although it had a rattle inside. So I went ahead and changed the protection relay using the part on the link above. I used this video to help. The diagram on the side of my protection relay was exactly the same as the stock part already in the box. The car started immediately, although it is not running perfect. I am considering changing the other two Bosch relays also located within the black box. One has the code 0332 204 101 and the other has the code 0 392 014 113. The problem I have is that the 87 Testarossa workshop manual or parts websites do not show these relay codes, so I do not know which Bosch relays to order. (The video above also shows one large black relay rather than two small silver relays that I have). Can anyone assist?
Please confirm that you have a late euro TR with an F113B engine. The TR WSM only covers the early euro TR F113A engine and that doesn't have the triangular black box because it is a K-Jet (not a KE-Jet) injection system. For an F113B engine TR, you need the 459/86 wiring diagram which you can download here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ox8kxpyzlsid9jn/Wiring%20Diagrams%20TR%20459_86%20from%20Ben.pdf?dl=0 The two smaller Bosch relays in the triangular black box are associated with the cold start injector operation so don't really have anything to do with normal engine operation, but, if you had a defective protection relay, and someone tweaked the mixtures in that condition, you'll need to retweak the mixtures after getting the protection relay working. Those are the Bosch relay codes (although I think you mis-typed one as it should be 0 332 014 113). If you need the Ferrari PNs, they are: Bosch 0332014113 = Ferrari PN 40130007 Bosch 0332204101 = Ferrari PN 40130106 (but far cheaper to buy them from a non-F source using the Bosch PNs )
Forgot to add: That video is for a US version TR F113A040 engine. It has the protection relay, three small silver relays, and 1 larger black tachometric relay (for the air injection system) inside the black box. An F113B engine TR only has the protection relay and two small silver relays inside the black box.
Thank you Steve very useful. I confirm that I have the F113B engine. Thank you for the wiring diagram and the part codes. Thank you also for your comment on the mixtures.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Steve are these parts going to work, as the part numbers have have changed? Cross Ref to Bosch part number 332204101 https://www.flyingspares.com/shop/starter-motor-relay-ud22452p.html
Yes: Bosch 0332014113 (metal) = Ferrari PN 40130007 = Bosch 0332019151 (black plastic) Bosch 0332204101 (metal) = Ferrari PN 40130106 = Bosch 0332209151 (black plastic) Although that AutoHaus part title is very misleading as there is no 87A terminal on that relay (as it should be) - it has two 87 terminals as shown on the photo of the outer case. For other reference, here the Tyco equivalents documented by a fellow FChatter: Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
it is important that you us for some places in the fuse box the 87 and 87a ( for example for the fuel pumps)
Ok for the record I am about to provide information on how I resolved the poor cold start followed by cut out and no fast idle issue on my 87 Euro Testarossa. Greypaul Ferrari in Edinburgh have now repaired the car by doing the following: 1. Refurbished both fuel metering heads. Sent by Greypaul to KMI Injection Engineering in Bedford, England, which took 8 weeks. 2. Removed dirt and dirty stale fuel from both fuel tanks and fuel lines. Cleaned the fuel filter which links both fuel tanks. 3. Tested the cold start injectors. Found faulty cold start relay which they replaced. 4. Changed faulty cold start thermo switch. 5. Retuned the engine. Car then still started and idled poorly from cold, so they ran tests on temperature sensors and the secondary idle air valve. Found that all 3 coolant temp sensors were operating out of range, as was the secondary idle air valve. (One was the water temperature sensor which tells the ECU that the engine is warm) 4. Replaced the Thermocontact - different from the cold start thermo switch in point 4 above. 5. Changed secondary air valve and bled the cooling system. Car now starts from cold now and runs on fast idle until heated up and revs now without hesitation. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
so may be the complete work for fixing the fuel metering heads has been useless? always check first the cheapest things important is that all is good now again
Fortunately not, as the metering heads were found to be in bad condition. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Ouch! Elliot, glad your car is running correctly, but I don't think you can definitively say this is how it was resolved. It could be a combo of those issues on your car or one thing. That is a lot of work to resolve something that could be caused by a number of single problems. Said they found a faulty relay for cold start switch, but then replaced faulty cold start switch. Which came first? I'm glad I don't have rely on Ferrari dealers mechanics to repair or service my cars. I can only imagine what that bill looked like.
It looks like my 1986 Euro TR is playing up, after having been away for 3months having various major work done (rear suspension rebuilt, new bushes, radiators rebuilt, new alternator, window regulator relay bypasses and a full engine out + belt change service). Got her back 3 weeks ago and she was running perfect including starting first time and never had her so smooth, however I took her out last Sunday to a car show and she had a slight misfire when accelerating at normal speeds up to 70mph ish (engine came up to normal temperature and everything else was working fine including instruments). Then parked her up at the show for the day and tried to start the engine, she struggled to start and after multiple attempts the engine fired up but was running very rough + kept cutting out. I popped open the engine bay and wriggled the 2x wiring loom connectors going into the protection relay metal box and she immediately ran a lot better but not perfect. On the 20mile journey back, it was running very poorly and struggled to get over 40mph with constant misfires/stalling/bunny hopping…. Could do with a sanity check and advice on next steps please:- 1) I have attempted to clean the Amp circular connectors and pins (16pin and 9pin) which go into the protection relay box, including using contact cleaner and a very small amount of copper grease. The engine still seems to start most times but not always, also it runs rough including when revving the engine you can tell she is not running perfect or even starts first turn of the key which she did before. The fuel pumps energise and run fine though, starter motor turns and battery is healthy. 2) I have swapped out both relays with known good ones in the metal box over the right hand arch, makes no difference: Bosch 0332014113 (metal) Bosch 0332204101 (metal) (Have ordered some brand new equivalent ones in case anyway and will fit when they arrive). Note: All other fuse board relays were recently changed as a precaution on the car, apart from the Tachometric relay but doesn’t seem the issue would be with this relay or circuit? 3) The 928.615.124.02 protection relay fuse has not blown and I also replaced with a fresh fuse, makes no difference including checking the spade connectors- the car still struggles to start/maintain smooth revs/slight misfire engine grumble when pressing the accelerator. 4) As part of the very recent full engine service I had brand new spark plugs, ignition wires, Distributor caps, 2x Fuel distributors fitted (to refresh the ageing components). 5) I have ordered 2x new circular 9pin &16pin Amp connectors which are cheap to replace as I noticed both clamp rings are broken, will pop out the existing female pins and clean them as I change them over to the new plastic plugs… This is whilst I’m sorting this area out of the car. Part numbers for reference are: Amp - TE Connectivity 182645-1 (9way) - 16AWG pins. (£3.04+VAT) Amp - TE Connectivity 182642-1 (16way) - 16AWG pins (£3.18+VAT) TE Connectivity 305183 E traction tool In researching the issues on past threads and speaking to the Ferrari Indy who did all the recent major service work it certainly sounds like 99.9 percent electrical issue. From the greater wisdom and knowledge from members on the forum, would replacing the Protection Relay cure the problems I am facing including the slight misfire on higher revs/speeds? Also any additional steps / advice to take, apart from the cleaning of connectors and replacing the Amp circular plugs….? Many Thanks in advance.
Some photos for reference… Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Those two relays in the same box over the RR wheel with the Protection Relay are part of the CSI system -- unless they have failed in a weird way that causes the CSIs to squirt when they shouldn't, they aren't the issue (i.e., very unlikely that they are part of your problem). This is goodness, but does not guarantee that all is OK with everything in the Protection Relay system. Best to measure the voltage on the red wire at the water thermoswitch on the LH side of the water Y-pipe on the top of the engine. It should always be +12V relative to ground whenever the engine is running or cranking. Getting +12V here confirms the Protection Relay is working AND all of the connections (even in those round connectors) are OK: Image Unavailable, Please Login If you have +12V at the red wire when you have the problem = replacing the Protection Relay will do nothing. If you don't have +12V at the red wire when you have the problem = measure the voltage on terminal 87 of the Protection Relay -- if that's not +12V = maybe you need a new Protection Relay, but you should really first confirm/deny all the input signals going to the Protection Relay are there and OK before condemning it: Image Unavailable, Please Login Definitely do this. Not having the clamp rings in place on those round connectors is terrible for the pins and sockets (as the vibration will cause fretting corrosion at the contact points between the pins and the sockets, and the pins and sockets are not supposed to take the load supporting the cable).
Many thanks for your information and guidance as always Steve, I will check and measure tomorrow…will report back my findings.
Hi Steve I checked the voltage of the red wire at the indicated sensor on the engine and it is showing 12.6v when the engine runs, also I checked terminal 87 at the Protection relay and it is showing 12.6v as well.. so assume the protection relay is working fine. The engine still struggles to start and is running rough(misfiring) Sometimes cuts out after a short time, when the revs drop. I noticed when the engine was running lumpy at times I could hear the relay 0332204101 clicking/activating, not sure if it’s just by design and the fuel management system is activating by design. Not sure what else to check now? I have ordered new plastic connectors for the loom, so will certainly do some further cleaning/checks in case it’s anything there…
It’s definitely an electrical related issue, but not 100% sure if it’s ignition or fuel supply/sensor electrical related. Both engine banks are running as the engine warms up both sides… I will do further checks tomorrow evening to double check all spark plugs and leads fire, hopefully it’s not a coil or module (may look to swap them round). My guess at the moment is either a bad connection, failed relay or sensor somewhere… but I’ll have to do more hunting with some help.
Yes, if you mean this is what you measured during the bad running = it's not a Protection Relay problem (although that voltage level seems a little lowish for a working alternator). The relay 0332204101 will click every time the idle throttle microswitch either opens (off-idle) or closes (idle). During warm-running this should have no effect on anything. During cold-running: When at idle, the ...101 relay is actuated = this prevents the ...113 relay from actuating and firing the CSIs. When not at idle, the ...101 relay is unactuated = this allow the ...113 relay to be actuated by the Microplex ECU (and squirt the CSIs) if it detects a rapid drop in intake manifold vacuum (i.e., a throttle blip). During warm-running, you can just unplug the CSIs themselves. This would remove anything electrical in that CSI system from causing a problem (so if the bad running exists during warm-running with the CSIs unplugged = it's not an electrical CSI problem). Welcome to the downside of complexity. Sometimes we get lucky and it's something easy to find and fix, and sometimes it's a totally evil Gremlin. Do you have a copy of Diagnosis Sheet N. 5 (specifically for F113B) or Diagnosis Sheet N. 6 (for F113A040, but has a lot of similarity if you ignore the "with Lambda" stuff)? Likewise, pages D61-D106 of the TR WSM has a lot of similarity to your system (if you ignore the "with Lambda" stuff). Have you done this simple check to see if the the 2-channel thermister is sending the correct "temperature" signal to both injection ECUs?: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks for the reply Steve and does look like it’s not a Protection Relay problem, based on the diagnosis so far and information. I don’t unfortunately have a copy of the diagnosis sheets for my engine which is F113B, appreciate a copy if you have them to hand please? However I just unplugged both ECUs and attempted to take measurements as follows:- (1) The right hand side ECU (same side as Protection relay box etc), Pins 2 & 21 come up with 2100(ish) Ohms and the engine temperature is around 20 Degrees Celsius. So appears to be in normal working range according to the graph (2) The left hand side ECU connector however doesn’t have the same PIN layout as the Right hand side, there is no Pin21 (unpopulated). The only pins which came up with a resistance was 1 & 2, but this only came up with 700Ohms so not sure if this is correct at all.? Picture of the connector: Image Unavailable, Please Login Should I look to remove the water thermosensor from the engine or read again from the sensor body terminals itself? Although a bit awkward to access without disconnecting the air box hose etc.?
I think you might have the wrong ECU -- both injection ECUs are on the RH side of the engine bay (the ignition ECU is on the LH side): Image Unavailable, Please Login
Ah I didn’t realise it had a separate Ignition ECU! Right I just retook the measurements: Forwardmost ECU = 2160 ish Ohms (pin 2 & 21) Rearmost ECU = 2060 ish Ohms (pin 2 & 21) A small difference between them…
Ran out of editing time! If you do have a bad connection at the 2-channel thermister (which has been reported more than once before), or a bad 2-channel thermister itself, it's mounted far enough forward that removing the airbox is not so necessary. If you fail either resistance test measured at the injection ECU connectors, you would then move to the 2-channel thermister itself and make the same measurement there -- i.e., unplug the 2-channel thermister and measure the resistance from one of the male pins to the metal body, then measure from the other male pin to the metal body. If either of those is bad = buy a new 2-channel thermister. If those measure good, but don't measure good at the injection ECU connectors = has to be a connection/wiring problem. Image Unavailable, Please Login
