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89 testarossa

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by doughboy, Jul 6, 2011.

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  1. doughboy

    doughboy Rookie

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    justin thayer
    #1 doughboy, Jul 6, 2011
    Hey i am experiencing some problems with my Testarossa it went in for some new brembo brakes and wheels and tires! while on the way to the dealer it experienced almost all power loss and would barely run. At the shop they had to change one coil and both caps and rotors to make it run enough to find the problem! once it was back i found it had a strange stumbling idle. After a few trips out it has started to deteriorate again to the point now it wont fire up! yesterday i had it running breifly but it sat about 700rpm and did not change even a small pump of the throttle did not change the rpm , it actually made it want to stall out. I called the dealer back on the issue they told me i should do a tune up plugs wires caps and rotors, i just dont want to do all this work again as i just chagne the plugs, coil-cap wires and both dizzy caps and rotors. In reading through lots of posts on this forum you guys seem pretty knowledgable on the subject of ferraris that is why i hope to get some usefull feedback on what to look at next to get the car running again! its over an hour drive to the nearest dealer! Your help would be much appreciated at this point!

    thank you Justin
     
  2. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #2 vrsurgeon, Jul 6, 2011
    I like to think that there are three things that cause an engine to run: fuel, spark and timing. Sounds like the spark is there. Now the question is is the fuel mixture off (does it smell of gas) or is the timing off? Slipped belt or chain (I can't remember which the 'rossa has to be frank). I'll check the fuel injection let me see if it's bosch CIS...
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 Steve Magnusson, Jul 6, 2011
    If your '89 TR is engine family F113A040 (US version) or F113B (late Euro version) using KE-Jetronic (which it probably is), the symptom you give corresponds to losing the +12V power to run the "E" part of the KE-injection system. Try a search on "TR red wire" or "TR protection relay" for prior threads/description/things to check.
     
  4. doughboy

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    #4 doughboy, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
    Ok i searched the overload relay and read some stuff i have pulled out the control box and checked it out. The fuse is not blown and i checked for power on the fuse it has constant power i am just waiting for my helper to come back to test for power when starting i did try starting after checking all the conections and it seemed to sound better when firing up but just stalled out immediatly

    i will post again with my findings of the constant power during starting

    Another question is what is the other relay in this control box ? should it be suspect too ?


    Update i did more tests constant power on pin 30 of the relay is 12.4 v when turning over or starting the voltage on pin 87 of the relay i s 0.95 v the relay clicks when you turn on the key car tries to fire but wont continur to run ???
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 Steve Magnusson, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
    No, not typically. If you have a F113B (which I assume that you do), the other two relays in the triangular black box are related to firing the cold start injectors when appropriate and preventing their firing when appropriate. It's not impossible that these aren't doing something bad, like firing the cold start injectors continuously, but you can always just unplug the cold start injectors to see if that has any effect on the problem (but cold starting might be difficult with them unplugged).

    It's good that you have +12V present at the fuse in the protetion relay, but the money ball is having +12V on terminal 87 (the "red wire") when the engine is running.

    It's also good that the fuse is not blown (which shows that the alternator is probably OK). The function of the protection relay is to "protect" the injection ECUs from a wacky voltage coming out of the alternator. Since your fuse was not blown, as a quicky test, you can (probably safely) just directly connect the +12V wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay to the wire on terminal 87 of the protection relay as see if your running improves (but, if it does, you'd still need to determine if the protection relay is bad, or if one of the input signals to the protection relay is bad/missing before buying a new protection relay). Ideally, if you can put a 10A fuse in the jumper wire you connect between terminal 30 and terminal 87, that would be best.

    Edit -- That low voltage (0.95V) on terminal 87 is definitely a bad thing (should be the same voltage as on terminal 30 whenever the engine is running or cranking) -- try using the jumper suggested above to simulate a properly "closed" protection relay.
     
  6. Mr.Chairman

    Mr.Chairman F1 Rookie

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    #6 Mr.Chairman, Jul 6, 2011
    I had a simaliar issue.. I just sent you a pm with my contact info.. I would like to step you thru a few things.. Its just easier to discuss vs. typing right now..

    R
     
  7. doughboy

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    #7 doughboy, Jul 6, 2011
    Ok I have checked all the coil connections cleaned them and re conected them this made little to no difference in the ability to start the engine! however the same issue still remains at the relay the constant power drops from 12.4v to 0.95v when i turn on the key and try to start the engine! the wire colour at the relay is yellow with red patches every 1/2 inch or so that wire colour does not corispond to any of the wires on the coils. I will try and trace that wire back tomorrow when i am in the shop again it goes forward in the big main harness on the right side


    I put 12v direct from the battery to the contact on the relay and it gives a good loud click and the car then starts up fine and seems to run can anyone tell me where this wire goes to if it goes to the fuse box or relays at the front of the car ???


    I know this is a old issue for some but new to me so be patient with what may be my dumb questions also i am new to ferrari maintanace so i am doing my best to learn as much as i can to keep this car running smooth!
     
  8. Apples

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    #8 Apples, Jul 6, 2011
    Check O2 sensor relay, Porsche part. Sometimes make them go real lean with no power.
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

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    #9 Steve Magnusson, Jul 6, 2011
    The GR (yellow/red) wire goes to the same large post as the "+" battery cable on the back end of the starter solenoid -- i.e., it should always be at +12V (even with the key "off").

    There are no connectors shown on the 459/86 schematic in the path of this GR wire except for the large round C12 connector on the triangular box itself. Have at look in the starter solenoid area first (yours would not be the first report of the GR wire breaking off its metal loop terminal, nor of being put back on the wrong starter solenoid post).

    PS If you'd like a copy of the 459/86 TR wiring diagram, it can be downloaded from here:

    http://www.ferraridatabase.com/The_Downloads/Manuals_Other.htm

    (it's the one labeled "... EU F113B")
     
  10. doughboy

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    #10 doughboy, Jul 7, 2011
    found the issue! thanks to all your help it was the conection at the starter !
    the main power line and red and yellow wire could move by hand car still has stubly idle but that is a different gremlin i guess!
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Jul 7, 2011
    Glad to hear that you are making progress -- please ask the dealer to send the $s you paid for some needless work to my Paypal account ;)
     
  12. doughboy

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    #12 doughboy, Jul 7, 2011
    i will bet that this is the problem they encountered and just started changing parts! i should send them a bill for my time working on it !

    i have to do some searching now and read through some posts about this rough idle
     
  13. doughboy

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    #13 doughboy, Jul 13, 2011
    Hey guys more questions for you all! After getting the car running again and taking her for a few good runs the car is still running rough i find and smells strong like fuel when running i think its running really rich? When the car was in a ferrari a month or so ago they told me they had to adjust the CO levels. Since the car was there it now runs pourly and smells strong like fuel ! also the idle is low around 850 i know it should be at 1000 + or - 50 accordng to the owners manual i have here.

    Can anyone tell me more about this CO levels adjustmet and what that means also where to adjust the idle ? I really want the car back to the way it was before they serviced it. Also i should tell you a bit about the rough idle. When the car is at idle every few seconds it makes a stumble and this sort of low puff sound from the exhaust to me sounds like a missfire or one cylinder maybe intermitantly not firing.
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #14 Steve Magnusson, Jul 13, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
    If they adjusted the mixtures when the red wire was not at +12V, they will be set way too rich. Easiest thing to do (sans the right equipment) to get back into the right mixture ballpark is to measure the voltage on the single signal wire from each O2 sensor (relative to ground) when it is unplugged during warm idle (open-loop operation). The voltage should be at something like ~0.7V DC when the mixture is set correctly (and you should be able to make the voltage go below 0.5 VDC and above 0.5 VDC by turning the mixture screw -- if you can't do this, you have other problems). When you plug the O2 sensor single wire back in during warm idle (closed-loop operation), the voltage should be "wandering" around an average of 0.5V DC -- if it doesn't do this, you have other problems.
     
  15. maurice70

    maurice70 F1 Rookie

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    #15 maurice70, Jul 14, 2011
    Steve as always,you are a bible of information :D
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

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    #16 Steve Magnusson, Jul 14, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
    Thanks for the kind words Maurice, but I should've reread this whole thread before responding. Justin never responded if he actually had a US or late euro TR, but, based on his lowish "relay count" inside the triangular black box, I'd (re)guess that he has a late euro F113B engine (so no O2 sensors to measure).

    Sorry about that confusion Justin. If you've got a F113B engine, you'll need some type of equipment to measure the exhaust gas content to set the mixtures -- unless you want to do it by "ear" ;)
     
  17. doughboy

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    #17 doughboy, Jul 16, 2011
    Hey guys I was off at the hospital with my wife having our baby! now im back around house and shop the car came from the us i will check that engine code again but im sure its the us one! i will re read this in a few hours and then most likely post again about where to find the adjustment screws you talk about! im fairly hands on but just have no experience on these cars i appreciate all the help ! and im sure it has cats also

    thanks guys

    Justin
     
  18. doughboy

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    #18 doughboy, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
    Hey guys It has been a crazy couple weeks but today im looking at the car! locating the o2 sensors and trying to find the adjusment screws not sure where those are tho!

    How do i turn up the idle is there a screw or nob on each side for this and should the idle be corrected before i make any tests on the o2 sensors?

    the car is running much better after the wiring problems are fixed i took it to montreal a few days ago and it ran good but still smells strong of fuel in the exhaust im sure its set up wrong!

    Anyway back to the car! now back to work on the car !

    Justin
     
  19. doughboy

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    #19 doughboy, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ok guys found some real bull$hit while tracing back the o2 sense lines There is a small metal plate on the right side of engine bay show in the pics it has two small boxes on it and they are attached to the o2 senser wires one wire is conpletely wrecked bare wire exposed and the two main harness plugs were not even connected! What do these boxes do and why would they be disconected? If i fix the one wire is it safe to reconect the harnesses and fire it up to see how it runs with all that connected?

    Also i thought a pic of the car you all are so patiently helping me with might be in order
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  20. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 Steve Magnusson, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
    Justin,

    Those (overtemperature warning light) ECUs are connected to the thermocouples, not the O2 sensors. They often malfunction, and people unplug them to prevent the (annoying) warning lights in the dash from illuminating. They have no effect on the operation of the engine, and are just a safety device to tell the Driver if a cat is overheating and will probably set the surrounding coachwork on fire (which is a handy piece of information to have ;)).

    For this "resurrection", you should really get a copy of the (US) TR WSM 330/84 (which has pages D61 to D106 covering the US KE-Jet engine) IMO -- be warned that most TR WSM available on CD only cover the euro K-Jet engine.
     
  21. doughboy

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    #21 doughboy, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
    Ok so then were would the o2 sensors be and should i repair the one wire and plug it back in and see what happens ?
    oh i think i found them they are down below in the center or the exhaust! there are two large wires and one small one is it the small wire i test voltage on?
     
  22. Steve Magnusson

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    #22 Steve Magnusson, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  23. doughboy

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    #23 doughboy, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
    This is great amazing diagram now i located them and pulled back the rubber boots to find the terminals taped with electrical tape and the o2 signal wires not conected?

    Ok i tested the wires with the two signal wires disconected i get .60 v steady when i conected them and tested i get jumping voltage from .27-.71 v the other sits steeady at .16volts and doesnt move when i conected them the car seemed to run much rougher!
     
  24. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #24 Steve Magnusson, Aug 5, 2011
    Maybe even "resurrection" was too kind a word -- you have a real challenge ahead...
     
  25. doughboy

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    #25 doughboy, Aug 5, 2011
    I guess i better just stop and wait for a workshop manual to arrive?! what do the test readings in the above post tell you ? Do you use any type of msn messanger or other instant message system ? :>
     
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