89 Testarossa (help needed again) | Page 2 | FerrariChat

89 Testarossa (help needed again)

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by GTTT, Jul 31, 2019.

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  1. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    But you may need to manually flare the side ears on the pins out a little (before reinserting) so they grab on the step that keeps them from backing out.
     
    turbo-joe likes this.
  2. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
  3. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    thank you,

    I did try flaring the little side ears out before trying to re insert the female pins. I was hoping this would help them from sliding back out - fingers crossed


     
  4. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    So guys, I was able to push pins 15 and 20 back into their appropriate slots and lock them into place. (please see image below)

    Just to be extra safe/cautious I installed a New fuse in the brand new 61766200 RELAY W/FUSE in the black box. I used a smart fuse with the glow feature, so If it blows it would be easy to identify.

    1. I left the cover off the black box and attached the large and small round connectors.
    2. I placed the box securely on the frame rail with the open side up so i could see the fuse and had my wife try to start the car.

    3. And! No luck, :-( the car was hard to start and did not want to idle. It would slow crank/turn/over - barley fire up and then just die out.

    4. Fuse on the relay was ok and did not blow during cranking.



    Any ideas or suggestions on what I should try next ? Should I try to change the Bosch 0280230012 or Ferrari Part # 61766300 (item 18 in the 1990 TR SPC Tav 12)? other fuses or relays?

    I appreciate everyone's help , thank you guys!







    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    No, item 18 is just a tachometric relay that disables the air injection system during cold running if at high RPM (and you shouldn't be doing that anyway) -- it has nothing to do with reasonable starting and running (nor do any of the other relays).
    With everything plugged in:

    1. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay (the one with the 10A fuse) and the engine block or cylinder head = should always be +12V.
    2. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay and the black wire on terminal 31 of the protection relay = should also always be +12V
    If those are both OK
    3. Measure the voltage between the purple-white wire on terminal 15 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking)
    4. Measure the voltage between the red wire on terminal 87 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking).

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If you pass all those tests but still have a problem, then you need to confirm/deny if the +12V on terminal 87 is reaching the red wire on the water thermoswitch on the water Y-pipe (this will confirm/deny if the +12V power from terminal 87 of the protection relay is reaching the KE-Jet injection ECUs), but report on tests 1-4 before we hassle with going there ;)
     
  6. vincenzo

    vincenzo F1 Rookie

    Nov 2, 2003
    3,373
    Dang it Steve...

    When are you going to write a book to capture all the knowledge you have accumulated?

    Much appreciated.
     
  7. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    I agree vincenzo!

    Steve tons of knowledge and is a real asset to the ferrari community. Reading his info, comments and threads has helped me out plenty of times!

     
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  8. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    First I want to thank you for taking the time to help me with the issue on the testarossa

    I am not the best with electronic diagnosis so if you don't mind, I am going to ask how to preform test 1-4 correctly. (i have a voltage/circuit tester)


    1. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay (the one with the 10A fuse) and the engine block or cylinder head = should always be +12V.
    A... How should I measure the voltage - red lead from the tester on the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 - and - the black lead touching a bolt/ground on the block or cylinder head? ignition key on/off?

    2. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay and the black wire on terminal 31 of the protection relay = should also always be +12V
    A... Red lead from the tester to the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 -and- black lead from the tester to the black wire of the protection relay? ignition key
    on/off ?


    If those are both OK - is test 3 and 4 also preformed on the protection relay

    3. Measure the voltage between the purple-white wire on terminal 15 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking)
    A... Red lead from the tester to the purple white wire on terminal 15 -and- black lead from the tester to terminal 31 -- test while cranking should be around 10V's if car actually turns over and is running the it should be 12V's.


    4. Measure the voltage between the red wire on terminal 87 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking).
    A.. Red lead from tester to the red wire on terminal 87 -and- Black lead from the tester to terminal 31 -- test while cranking should be around 10V's if car actually turns over and is running the it should be 12V's.

    If you pass all those tests but still have a problem, then you need to confirm/deny if the +12V on terminal 87 is reaching the red wire on the water thermoswitch on the water Y-pipe (this will confirm/deny if the +12V power from terminal 87 of the protection relay is reaching the KE-Jet injection ECUs), but report on tests 1-4 before we hassle with going there ;)[/QUOTE]

    Thank You Steve!!
     
  9. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    My comments are shown in blue after yours. You should be able to touch the leads from your voltmeter/tester to the exposed back ends of the female metal spade terminals in the block where the protection relay mounts:

    1. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay (the one with the 10A fuse) and the engine block or cylinder head = should always be +12V.
    A... How should I measure the voltage - red lead from the tester on the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 - and - the black lead touching a bolt/ground on the block or cylinder head? ignition key on/off?
    Correct, best to do with ignition off IMO (but can be done with either ignition off or on)


    2. Measure the voltage between the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 of the protection relay and the black wire on terminal 31 of the protection relay = should also always be +12V
    A... Red lead from the tester to the yellow-red wire on terminal 30 -and- black lead from the tester to the black wire of the protection relay? ignition key
    on/off ?
    Correct, best to do with ignition off IMO (but can be done with either ignition off or on)


    If those are both OK - is test 3 and 4 also preformed on the protection relay -- Yes, tests 3 and 4 would also be done by touching your voltmeter/tester leads to the back end of the female metal terminals in the block holding the protection relay.

    3. Measure the voltage between the purple-white wire on terminal 15 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking)
    A... Red lead from the tester to the purple white wire on terminal 15 -and- black lead from the tester to terminal 31 -- test while cranking should be around 10V's if car actually turns over and is running the it should be 12V's.
    Correct. If the engine is actually running, it may even be higher than +12V if the alternator has enough RPM to work. You're not looking to measure anything super accurately here - it will be either something like +12V/test light "on" (good) or 0V/test light "off" (bad).



    4. Measure the voltage between the red wire on terminal 87 and the black wire on terminal 31 during starter motor cranking or engine running.= should be +12V (or `10V if the starter motor is cranking).
    A.. Red lead from tester to the red wire on terminal 87 -and- Black lead from the tester to terminal 31 -- test while cranking should be around 10V's if car actually turns over and is running the it should be 12V's.
    Correct (with same additional comment at test #3).


    If you pass all those tests but still have a problem, then you need to confirm/deny if the +12V on terminal 87 is reaching the red wire on the water thermoswitch on the water Y-pipe (this will confirm/deny if the +12V power from terminal 87 of the protection relay is reaching the KE-Jet injection ECUs), but report on tests 1-4 before we hassle with going there ;)

    Thank You Steve!! -- Good Hunting! If you fail test #1 or test #2, there is no reason to do tests #3 and #4 until you pass both tests #1 and #2.
     
  10. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Sorry guys - accidentally it reply on the previous post.


    Steve - I did the first test and the first test failed - I do not have any power at the yellow-red wire (i checked with multiple ground points)

    please let me know what steps i should take if the 1st test fails.

    The second test failed also.

    Thank You in advance
     
  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Where the large +12V battery cable connects to the back end of the starter solenoid, there should also be a large loop terminal with a yellow-red wire on that same large stud. First thing to do is check that the yellow-red wire and its large loop terminal are OK there (have been reports of the yellow-red wire being broken from the loop terminal). The (thankfully minimal) food chain is:

    the yellow-red wire and its large loop terminal gets +12V directly from the battery cable at the starter solenoid
    the yellow-red wire signal then passes thru the large round C12 connector on the black box
    it then goes to the protection relay socket terminal 30

    If everything is OK with the yellow-red wire and its large loop terminal at starter solenoid, but you don't have +12V at terminal 30 of the protection relay = bad connection thru the large round C12 connector.

    (The good news is that you've identified a problem that would cause your exact symptom. If you had passed all 4 tests, and still had the same runability problem = we never want to go there ;))
     
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  12. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    I will remove the airbox and check the starter wiring - be back in few mins.

    thank you


     
  13. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    I removed the airbox to access the starter and wiring (image attached)

    When I touched the yellow wire it loose and would spin in the bolt. Could this be the issue?

    thank you
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #39 Steve Magnusson, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
    Yes. It seems you have the "added relay at the solenoid to aid starting" fix installed so you may have some additional wiring modifications there, too. Bottom line is that you need a good electrical connection between the large +12V battery cable and the original yellow-red wire there in order to pass test #1. That "yellow" wire may be the original yellow-red wire with the red worn off or faded, or it could be an added wire (putting another electrical connection into the food chain). Do whatever "repair/clean-up/retightening" there that you need to do to pass test #1.
     
  15. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    I cleaned the connection up and tightened the bolt to hold the yellow/red wire and the large 12v wire firmly together.

    After cleaning/tightening the bolt, the car passed Test 1 and Test 2.

    I was working on the car pretty late last night and did not want to crank/start the car and wake everyone up ;-).

    I'll preform test 3 and 4 today and report back.

    Fingers crossed, hopefully it was this small issue and the car will start and run like normal today.

    Thank You,
    Hassan

     
  16. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve,

    I performed test number 3 this evening.

    On the first crank the voltage was 9.8v. On the second try the car fired right up like normal, idled perfect, rev'd perfect and throttle response was good!!

    I would have been chasing the problem and stressing out on how to find the culprit and with your help the testarossa is back to normal!

    I can't thank you enough for your help and for taking the time to share your knowledge with me.

    I really appreciate your help, Thank You!
    GTTT
     
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  17. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #42 Steve Magnusson, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
    Glad that you've got it running properly again. Now, repeat after me: "I will not buy any new parts again until I have made some measurements to confirm that I need to buy new parts" ;)

    It's interesting to note how Bosch got "smarter" as they evolved the CIS injection. On KE-Jet, the EHA current range is 0 mA to +20mA with a nominal default center EHA current of +10 mA, so when the protection relay isn't working properly, the EHA current goes to 0 mA (very lean) and the engine will barely run. On the following iteration of CIS, KE3-Jet, they changed the EHA current range to be -10 mA to +10 mA with a nominal default center EHA current of 0 mA -- consequently, if the protection relay doesn't work for some reason, the EHA current again goes to 0 mA, but the engine still runs perfectly well because that's the nominal center EHA current value. I'd wager that there are many KE-3 Jet equipped cars running around out there with a dead protection relay, and the Driver doesn't even know (whereas, a dead protection relay is fatal for KE-Jet equipped cars).
     
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  18. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Steve "I will not buy any new parts again until I have made some measurements to confirm that I need to buy new parts" :D:D:D

    imo - it's better to have the engine not run at all, then having a dead protection relay with no symptoms and a very lean running eng.

    What are your thoughts/opinions on the 1980's mercedes Bosch CIS systems?

    GTTT



     
  19. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,868
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    I´m not steve whom you ask, but the first CIS systems in mercedes ( also other like VW, audi ) had no protection relays
     
  20. GTTT

    GTTT Karting

    Sep 7, 2013
    67
    Hi Joe,

    are the 80s/90s mercedes bosch systems pretty reliable?

     
  21. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,868
    southwest germany and thailand
    Full Name:
    romano schwabel
    yes, very reliable when they are always in use. most problems they have when standing too long, so not in use and the fuel depris appears.
     
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  22. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Don't know exactly which Bosch CIS system that that would be (my guess would be K-Jet without Lambda), but I agree with romano's observation: a real downside to all the CIS systems is that there are just way too many very close mechanical fits and small openings/orifices so CIS does not tolerate long disuse well. Additionally, having the airflow metering plate in the intake tract adds an airflow restriction that later EFI system don't suffer from. My comments on the various Bosch CIS systems that Ferrari used (in the order they appeared) are:

    K-Jet without Lambda: Brilliant in its simplicity as it has no electronic ECU (so no protection relay either), yet delivers fuel with a preciseness that is just not possible with a carburetor. Not having a Lambda function meant that they had to do something else later when emission rules got more restrictive. It does have a thermo-mechanical CU, the Warm-Up Regulator (WUR).

    K-Jet with Lambda: A little bit over-complicated as they added an electronic ECU (and protection relay) and Frequency Valve to do the "Lambda" stuff, but it still also has the WUR.

    KE-Jet with Lambda or KE-Jet without Lambda: Better. Still has an electronic ECU (and protection relay), but eliminates the WUR. The EHA, run by the electronic ECU, does all of the functions of both the WUR and Frequency Valve (so those components are both gone).

    KE3-Jet with Lambda or KE3-Jet without Lambda: Best. All the advantages of KE-Jet with two added refinements: 1) the change in the EHA current range discussed earlier (which makes the system virtually immune to a protection relay failure leaving you stranded), and 2) they raised all of the various fuel pressures slightly (this slightly improves the efficiency of the system).

    JMOs.
     
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  23. bpu699

    bpu699 F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Dec 9, 2003
    16,210
    wisconsin/chicago
    Full Name:
    bo
    Before chasing wires, did you just make sure one of your fuel pumps isn’t shot?

    Sounds like one bank isn’t running. Should be easy to figure out which, header will be cold...

    Check that fuel pump...
     
  24. OptimusPrime

    OptimusPrime Formula Junior

    May 10, 2011
    284
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Tom
    Hi Steve M,
    After reading this post, I removed my C12 round connector for the heck of it and also discovered pin #15 pushed in. I had no tabs left so I ordered a new pin from Digi-Key that I will repair with. Can you tell me what #15 might effect if it was not touching male side of connector? I only notice some extra fuel smell but no other issues. Thoughts? Thanks again for always helping everyone.
     
  25. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    The US TR wiring diagram shows that pin 15 in the C12 connector is a purple (Z) wire (please confirm/deny that matches the wire color of the pin you are dealing with). During cold-running, it puts a ground signal onto pin 16 of the injection ECUs to "tell" them that the engine is cold and that the air injection system is running (so ignore the O2 sensor signals and run open-loop). During warm-running, there is no signal on this purple wire ("telling" the injection ECUs to start using the signals from the O2 sensors and run closed-loop) so, if it's wrongly unconnected, it should have no effect at all on warm-running. During cold-running, if it's wrongly unconnected, the injection ECUs probably would be trying to add extra fuel because the extra air put into the exhaust stream by the air injection system causes the O2 sensors to report a very low voltage regardless of what is really happening in the engine ("telling" the injection ECUs: "I'm lean so please add more fuel").
     
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